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OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#171

Post by benmller313 »

jimmy2020 wrote: post #151

Is there any good that done by Amazon to support OSS? Like ever. They started with cloning MongoDB and now Elastic with actually zero contribution to the community regardless of their insane profits. This is a clear single. Amazon can always clone and redistribute any open source software then lock it in for AWS. If we've started to witness declining in OSS, well at least we know now who started the wave.

This seems like a much more positive response than the one they took with MongoDB. I agree, Amazon hasn't done much, but maybe this could be a start?

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#172

Post by asien »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #31

I have mixed feelings about this server side license stuff that mongo db started. Imagine where the internet would be today if the creators of apache and mysql had tried to prevent shared hosting providers in the early days of the web from using their software

> Imagine where the internet would be today if the creators of apache and mysql had tried to prevent shared hosting

PHP + MySQL was the foundation of the Internet not so long ago , Wordpress is stil the backbone of lots of platform.

With SS License definitely this would not have been possible.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#173

Post by 015a »

aardvarkr wrote: post #52
015a wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing which surprised me: Elastic has a market capitalization of ~$11B. I think that changes some of the more floaty ethical concerns. This is not a David vs Goliath situation. This is Goliath vs Super-Goliath. At this point, I'm much less interested in the drama of which mega-corp is screwing over the other. I'm more interested in: how does it affect me? When the titans are done trampling over the rest of us, wh…

Uhmmm I’m pretty sure David vs Goliath is talking about scale between competition. Saying that $11B is Goliath just because you’re sitting at $1M doesn’t mean they’re not in a crazy mismatched fight against a $2T company. In the same way you could be in a David vs Goliath situation yourself if you with $1M in wealth tried to sue someone with $25K of wealth. Everything is relative. Doesn’t mean it’s not a crazy unfair…

I don't root for David because he's smaller. I root for him because he's small.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#174

Post by judge2020 »

mikepurvis wrote: post #127
virgilp wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not entirely true, of course. Not if you don’t want to pay. As proof - just look at Amazon, they can’t (that’s why they forked it).

I don't think it's the freedom to run it anywhere. It's the freedom to run it anywhere and make changes to it that you don't contribute back : 1. Amazon wants to make private changes to the management layer for their cloud offering and not share those. 2. ES doesn't want that, so the 7.11+ license restricts it. 3. Amazon doesn't want to have to explain to their customers why their ES offering is stuck on v7.10, so th…

The SSPL directly prohibits offering the software as a service without releasing the source code of your entire operation regardless of if you change it or not:

> If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge...

> “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, all such that a user could run an instance of the service using the Service Source Code you make available.

AKA someone must be able to create aws.example.com if aws uses SSPL code. Not exactly the 'freedom to run it anywhere'.

https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license....

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#175

Post by sofixa »

raiflip wrote: post #170
TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

It seems reductionist to say Amazon primarily wraps around open source. What about EC2? S3? Glue? DynamoDB? Many of the services that provide the most value are services Amazon has built out.

Om top of these, many of the core services that AWS themselves rely on, like SQS, SNS, Kinesis, Lambda, Cloudfront, ECS, Fargate, Elastic Beanstalk are mostly homemade

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#176

Post by jimmy2020 »

015a wrote: post #43
TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

One thing which surprised me: Elastic has a market capitalization of ~$11B. I think that changes some of the more floaty ethical concerns. This is not a David vs Goliath situation. This is Goliath vs Super-Goliath. At this point, I'm much less interested in the drama of which mega-corp is screwing over the other. I'm more interested in: how does it affect me? When the titans are done trampling over the rest of us, wh…

This argument is part of Amazon's PR campaign to tell devs to not feel sorry for Elastic because it's now a big company and they make money in the market. So, if you built a successful OSS and start to make money then it's ethical to clone any OSS and pushes projects out of the market because now it is "Goliath vs Super-Goliath".

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#177

Post by fastball »

JamesSwift wrote: post #147
fastball wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you say they lock you into? What is AWS doing specifically that makes it harder to move between providers than if they were not doing that thing?

1) A vast majority of users are relying on managed services to some degree. 2) Permissions as a whole are usually very ingrained into much of what orgs rely on.

What do you mean when you say managed services? Because to me managed services are definitely not vendor lock-in because you can self-host most of those services and just migrate your data over.

With regards to permissions, I don't feel like it's possible to permission across an entire platform and not make it difficult to migrate over – do you know of any provider or platform that allows for cross-platform authentication with permissions?

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#178

Post by jimmy2020 »

dariusj18 wrote: post #168
jimmy2020 wrote: post #151

Is there any good that done by Amazon to support OSS? Like ever. They started with cloning MongoDB and now Elastic with actually zero contribution to the community regardless of their insane profits. This is a clear single. Amazon can always clone and redistribute any open source software then lock it in for AWS. If we've started to witness declining in OSS, well at least we know now who started the wave.

https://aws.amazon.com/opensource/

Yes exactly, you have actually to google it maybe you'll be able to find a useful link that makes Amazon looks good.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#179

Post by amzn-throw »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

> they can invest more resources into developing it than the original team ever could.

I know this is a popular narrative, but as someone who works on AWS, I think you would be shocked by how small the individual dev teams are that build and maintain the services that everyone uses.

I'm not going to downplay the network effects involved. Of course AWS has a tremendous advantage in being able to standardize the customer billing, IAM, and EC2 Usage.

And there are economies of scale.

But individual AWS service teams are: * incredibly lean and focused * still have to make a profit on their own terms based on the infrastructure they build and the fees they charge customers * laser customer obsessed to solve people's (developer's) direct needs.

I understand the community's concern about AWS investment and approach to OSS. But I can assure you (though you have no reason to believe me) that the goal is never to embrace, extend, then extinguish. It's all in the service of going where the customers are, and solving problems that they tell us they have. The profits are a byproduct. The "working backwards" process is no joke. We spend a lot of time figuring out what is the right thing for customers to build, start building it, and THEN we think about how do we make money from it.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#180

Post by harshaw »

cle wrote: post #115
hintymad wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds trivial to "wrap open source software", but surprisingly it is big value-add to thousands of companies. We can't just look at successful companies like Netflix to downplay the challenges of operating a service. Not every company knows how to operate complex systems under manageable cost. How many companies can really manage a Kafka cluster, let alone scaling it, for instance? Indeed, even companies that peo…

This is the most important point, IMO. Amazon's value add is not the software itself, it's the operation of the software. That includes a LOT of stuff, not just making sure it's running. It's security modeling and patching, compliance, DDOS protection, etc. Amazon's product is an army of ops engineers working 24/7 to keep your stuff secure and online. With that in mind, their behavior here makes a lot more sense, and…

AWS just has engineers full stop. No specific ops engineers.
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