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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#331

Post by africanboy »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #320
africanboy wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what exactly this has to do with what happened to Giuffre and why should we care if it's Giuffre quoting something we have known for years? Is Giuffre some kind of higher being whose words are to be taken as divine thruths, just because she's a victim of something completely unrelated? Has Stallman ever did anything remotely similar to a crime? BTW in my country sex at the age of consent would be considered statutory…

I was responding to the parent comment that claimed Giuffre was a "terrified and led" witness.

she could be, we don't know (at least I don't know) and since I don't know, I prefer to stay on the cautious side.

For example Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz has now sued the woman in federal court in New York, claiming that her allegations are “lies, disparagement, defamation, harassment” that are “beyond the bounds of decency and not tolerated in civilized society.” [...] Dershowitz repeated his previous claims that Virginia Roberts Giuffre was “pressured to falsely accuse Dershowitz” by her lawyers, namely the law firm headed by renowned attorney David Boies.

I can't honestly say who's right and who's lying.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#332

Post by dralley »

r3856283 wrote: post #197
rbanffy wrote: post #138

It kind of misses the point it was never just about Minsky and Epstein. > I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Did anyone explain him that he downplayed the role of women in the GNU project? Janis Johnson, Sandra Loosemore, and Dorit Nuzman, to name a few, all did extraordinary w…

> Did he ever correct his statements about no women volunteering to work on GCC? He wasn't aware of women working on GCC. There's nothing to correct. I'm not aware of women working on GCC. GNU has thousands of people working on it, he's not aware of most of them. So much criticism of him is taking his comments out of context and misrepresenting them, including so many things that are just complete fabrications that i…

>He wasn't aware of women working on GCC. There's nothing to correct. I'm not aware of women working on GCC.

....

>Sandra Loosemore is the lead author of the GNU Library Reference Manual;[3] RMS is listed as her co-author.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#333

Post by myrmidon »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #219
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are you comparing the rape of a minor to homosexuality?" Yes, that's exactly it. Respectable people would have felt the same way about homosexuality 100 years ago as you do about sex involving minors. Further, your characterization as "rape of a minor" is problematic. What's a minor? If one minor is involved, it automatically becomes rape? In much of Europe ages of consent are surprisingly low (14) to Americans, who…

I would absolutely not work with someone who held these views. Unprofessional, disturbing and illegal.

I'm trying to understand your perspective.

Would you be ok with Stallman defending Minsky if the victim had been one year older?

Do you think it should be illegal to publicly defend alleged perpetrators/what Stallman did?

Would you react more/less strongly if Minsky had been accused of murder, and Stallman pointed out that the crime was potentially assisted suicide?

Do you not want to work with Stallman because his moral system is not solid enough to you, or do I misunderstand your position?

Would you be willing to work with an ex-convict in general?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#334

Post by vidarh »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #322
vidarh wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maxwell was accused of directing Guiffre to have sex with Minsky by Guiffre in her deposition. As far as I know there is no allegation from Guiffre or others that it actually happened, only that she was 'directed' to do so. If I have missed sources that makes a clear allegation, I would appreciate hearing more. Do you have actual sources saying otherwise, or are you inferring an allegation it actually happened from G…

The questioning was about the high powered men Giuffre was trafficked to. To say it was only about Maxwell asking her to do so, is taking that quote out of context.

So in other words you admit you inferred from her deposition something she didn't actually say.

It is possible Minsky did have sex with her.

But to describe it as a 'credible allegation' is dishonest when it is not clear there is an allegation at all.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#335

Post by MrRadar »

linuxftw wrote: post #328
MrRadar wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never heard of the network effect? It would be extremely difficult to get users of GNU/GPL software to switch to alternatives after they're already made their choice.

So, because other people are unwilling to do the work themselves and want to consume the work of the FSF for free, that gives them power of the FSF to demand how they behave because of some nebulous idea of 'leadership?' The FSF doesn't owe you anything, and they're only your leader if you choose to follow them. The companies that have spoken out against Stallman represent 100's of billions of dollars in capital. It'…

Leadership within a realm begets influence. The entire goal of the FSF as a political organization is to influence the software industry to follow the core principles of Free Software that it espouses. By failing to be in a leadership position, and failing to do things to (re)gain the position, the organization as a whole is failing. The fact that companies representing "100s of billions of dollars in capital" had to put out statements regarding RMS returning to the FSF should tell you just how much of a leadership position the FSF used to have and how much they are damaging it by continuing to associate themselves with RMS.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#336

Post by prepend »

imwillofficial wrote: post #145
0x_rs wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is possibly not a fitting reply but your comment reads like satire to me, in all honesty. Both your claims in your first phrase I believe are wholly incorrect and could only originate from an out-of-context, accusatory source such as some articles linked in this thread that could not be more obviously manufactured to frame a very specific and offending perspective on a —ridiculously enough— discourse over semant…

I have read both RMS’ own statements on age of consent, I have read his statements defending minsky(s/p), and I’ve read firsthand accounts of students creeped out by his advances. None of those are acceptable for a person in a powerful position.

And you think that makes him a “statutory rape apologist” that seems like an unsupported , logical leap between your two posts.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#337

Post by africanboy »

Osmose wrote: post #265
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _other_times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia...". He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. He applies normative principles to it and can't see why it's wrong (e.g., age of consent varies...why would…

> completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF It's not independent, you can't just drop the context. RMS the 9-5 software dev at some nameless corporation having this discussion is, while still unacceptable (because the relevant society has decided that it is obvious why sex with minors is harmful), not nearly as impactful as RMS the respected-by-many leader of the free software movem…

that's completely fair!

but on the other hand some might think that the FSF is becoming one of those organizations were "social indignation" has more importance than "due process" and it might alienate old and new contributors that value that aspect.

Politics is always a trade off, you can't make everybody happy.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#338

Post by pseudalopex »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #275
pseudalopex wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me the discussion of his Epstein related comments encouraged other people to come forward with their own grievances. I don't think most people knew he defended adults having sex with children. Or he hit on much younger women at conferences. Or the FSF unionized because of him.

I really think they did. The first two were some of the only things I knew about RMS before the current controversy prompted me to learn more.

Only a handful of HN comments mentioned Stallman and pedophilia before the Epstein controversy.[1]

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#339

Post by andrewzah »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #261
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As he's a visible spokesperson, that means his blog content is part of his overall role, and not something that can be treated in isolation." I agree this is de facto the case. It's kind of sad, though, and I don't think the world needs to be this way. There should be a way for an e.g. CEO or similar to have a life and persona outside of a job.

There are various ways to do that. Plenty of famous people manage to figure it out. That's not what RMS was after. He's putting this stuff up on his blog, which he uses for activism, not abstract philosophical inquiry.

"How dare people have opinions on politics or society on their personal web blogs". How is this any different than telling celebrities to pipe down, as if people aren't human anymore once they become famous?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#340

Post by kablp »

bigbillheck wrote: post #321

People keep focusing on the Minsky thing, but if Stallman hadn't spent the last 40 years being a creep (the "emacs virgin" thing), being a creep ('tender embraces'), being abusive (the FSF unionized to protect themselves from him), being abusive ( https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/1174044770546659329 ), being abusive ( https://twitter.com/mattblaze/status/1374460763910201350 ), being a jerk ("These birth annou…

So de Icaza told an anecdote and got > 50 likes, but we never hear the other side.

Why do some Twitter personalities always have first hand evidence while also writing software? Where do they find the time?

At least we have Microsoft/Linux instead of GNU/Linux now.

Perhaps RedHat and Debian (depending on the outcome of the GR) should rename that part.

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