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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#321

Post by bigbillheck »

People keep focusing on the Minsky thing, but if Stallman hadn't spent the last 40 years being a creep (the "emacs virgin" thing), being a creep ('tender embraces'), being abusive (the FSF unionized to protect themselves from him), being abusive (https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/1174044770546659329), being abusive (https://twitter.com/mattblaze/status/1374460763910201350), being a jerk ("These birth announcements also spread the myth that having a baby is something to be proud of"), then he might have been able to weather the storm a little better.

This isn't a 'oh, he said one thing one time about one person' situation, this is instead a lifetime of behavior that for anybody else would have had consequences long ago.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#322

Post by solosoyokaze »

vidarh wrote: post #298
solosoyokaze wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. This didn't prove false. The article we're commenting on is literally RMS defending Minsky who was credibly accused of raping a minor provided by Epstein. RMS is still connecting himself to Epstein.

Maxwell was accused of directing Guiffre to have sex with Minsky by Guiffre in her deposition. As far as I know there is no allegation from Guiffre or others that it actually happened, only that she was 'directed' to do so. If I have missed sources that makes a clear allegation, I would appreciate hearing more. Do you have actual sources saying otherwise, or are you inferring an allegation it actually happened from G…

The questioning was about the high powered men Giuffre was trafficked to. To say it was only about Maxwell asking her to do so, is taking that quote out of context.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#323

Post by 908B64B197 »

koheripbal wrote: post #131
b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

Neither of those things will happen. We would be better off if we could remove those dishonest people from our communities here and elsewhere. Dishonest reporting, and amplifying of dishonest posts on social media is not something you will ever get an apology for, because those efforts were never meant to survive scrutiny. They were meant to create "pressure" to cause reputational damage. You cannot convince or engag…

> Dishonest reporting, and amplifying of dishonest posts on social media is not something you will ever get an apology for, because those efforts were never meant to survive scrutiny. They were meant to create "pressure" to cause reputational damage.

Exactly.

The correct way of handling these instances of bad behavior is to block, shadowban and ignore.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#324

Post by solosoyokaze »

rscoots wrote: post #315
solosoyokaze wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not work with anyone who held those views, regardless of which country they were from. I find it abhorrent and especially so in the context of work.

But how do we all decide for ourselves what is abhorrent? Hopefully by some sort of reasoning right? (And hopefully not as tortured and ill-advised as what RMS wrote all those years ago.)

The same reasoning that says it's bad to murder someone. I would say empathy and a modicum of human decency.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#325

Post by prepend »

ashtonkem wrote: post #24

I really have no idea why anyone wants to keep RMS in charge of the FSF based on his work product alone. What has the FSF been doing other than slowly sliding into irrelevancy over the past 20 years?

GPLv3 came out in 2007 so that’s less than 20 years. They also sue people [0] who break the license, so that’s good.

I’m not sure how relevant FSF is supposed to be. They seem more relevant than ever, but aren’t a huge deal. They just run GPL and promote open source. And they’re one of many groups. So it’s ok, I think, to just do your thing and not blow up and be huge.

They are small ($1M annual budget [1] and 14 staff) and think that’s ok when compared to stuff like Mozilla where their CEO makes more than the entire FSF budget. The ROI from FSF compared to Mozilla seems really good and impactful.

Also, RMS isn’t “in charge” he’s on a board that includes four other people.

[0] https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-... [1] 1.4M in 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#326

Post by 908B64B197 »

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

And yet all we have documenting those are a few (anonymous) blog posts.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#327

Post by prepend »

philpem wrote: post #158
howeyc wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because having opinions is not something to apologize for.

If your "opinions" hurt people then yes, that is something to apologise for.

I think it depends on what the opinions are.

I used to be a vegetarian and had friends who would be upset and hurt when people ate meat. I don’t think meat eaters should apologize.

There’s lots of situations where someone says something reasonable, and someone gets upset and no apology is necessary.

Your claim that absolutely if opinions hurt people then the opinion haver should apologize , is wrong I think. And will lead to less discussion and a net negative to society.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#328

Post by linuxftw »

MrRadar wrote: post #284
linuxftw wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make your own GPL alternative if you don't approve of the FSF and how they conduct themselves. It's like saying Ford is in a leadership position, if you don't like their product, drive something else.

Have you never heard of the network effect? It would be extremely difficult to get users of GNU/GPL software to switch to alternatives after they're already made their choice.

So, because other people are unwilling to do the work themselves and want to consume the work of the FSF for free, that gives them power of the FSF to demand how they behave because of some nebulous idea of 'leadership?'

The FSF doesn't owe you anything, and they're only your leader if you choose to follow them.

The companies that have spoken out against Stallman represent 100's of billions of dollars in capital. It's pretty pathetic when you think about it.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#329

Post by hnbad »

rscoots wrote: post #313
hnbad wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument isn't that he contributed nothing or that his contributions are worthless. Few people are advocating for burning everything he built to the ground simply to exorcise his lingering influence once he is gone or whatever and even fewer are doing so in good faith. The argument is that by retaining his position he is actively alienating people. Do you think he is such a phenomenal genius that keeping him is w…

>Do you think he is such a phenomenal genius that keeping him is worth ten good people quitting or not joining in the first place? A hundred? A thousand? Unless the people at the FSF calling for his ousting are privately acknowledging that this is only because of the 'bottom line' (I don't think that's the case), then it becomes necessary to judge the actual reasoning of those hundred/thousands of people's decision t…

When I say "worth it", I'm not simply talking about finances.

He's a drain on the organization's reputation. People don't join the FSF because of the great working hours and phenomenal pay, they mostly join it for ideological reasons. We're not talking about retiring a beloved mascot because people don't like it anymore, we're talking about removing an individual holding a position of power who's actively keeping people away by being a sex pest.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#330

Post by dralley »

iajrz wrote: post #300
hota_mazi wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he is literally the only human completely implacable Not only is this assuredly false, but it's also the last thing we need in a position of leadership or even as a consultant. Understanding nuances is paramount for these positions.

> it's also the last thing we need in a position of leadership or even as a consultant. On technical matters, you are correct; on moral matters it's a different story. Think about the moral tragedies of history; we didn't need someone saying "maybe we should not be so evil; let's be less evil - not stop, because that's disruptive and I am not an extremist, but maybe dial it down a bit?" On moral battlegrounds we need…

>On technical matters, you are correct; on moral matters it's a different story.

They are intertwined. His moral positions have done incredible damage to GCC at a technical level, and lost huge amounts of marketshare to LLVM as a direct result.

(Stallman thought that making the compiler more modular and extensible was totally unacceptable because it might be possible in theory to write proprietary tools that used GCC to dump intermediate representations. Thus preventing any FOSS tools from using GCC, also).

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