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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#301
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. rumors 2. a mattress with “obvious implications” which I doubt he found obvious 3. rms: “I’m suicidal, please date me” Regardless of whether or not this qualifies as “harassment” (semantic arguments being pointless), I don’t think this justifies Removing him in any sense.

I mean, I've had a mattress in an office before, and the implication was I for a time lived in the office. No sex happened there, just poor work-life balance. A lot of the complaints against RMS seem like ableist assumptions about intent to me. Some of his behaviours are clearly problematic, but so is piling on someone this way. Frankly a lot of these attacks tells me more about the lack of empathy shown by the attac…

RMS isn't even the only person that has had a mattress by the door in their office at MIT. It used to be common enough, among both males and females, that nobody thought anything of it.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#302
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was sort of the opposite of competent: - Because it was a new license, it necessarily resulted in license fragmentation, which is an ongoing headache for the free software community. It's worth doing if there's a serious need that outweighs the costs and you can guide the community towards dropping the old license, but.... - The Linux kernel had always been GPLv2 only and remained GPLv2-only, which meant that th…

> Of the major issues around software freedom and digital autonomy today, approximately zero of them are TiVoization According to what? It seems to me tivoization is exactly one of the biggest issues facing users these days, especially in an IoT world, so how you can draw that conclusion (and the others) baffles the mind. I think if you really want to understand GPLv3, you should listen to Eben Moglen more than RMS,…

My entire point relies on Apple being an openly user-hostile company, yes! It was a great victory for the FSF that they were able to get Apple to release code and build on a free-software compiler, wasn't it?

And it's actually a little strange that they still release code and build on a different free-software compiler when not legally required to, despite being so user-hostile of a company, arguably quite a bit more user-hostile than they were in the past. There's a lot of discussion we ought to have about why they're contributing, whether that leverage was real, whether we could have predicted the rest of what they did, etc.

For IoT in particular, given that the processing power on-device is limited, I think it's pretty common for the serious risk to one's freedom/autonomy to be the fact that the data is being held and processed remotely and you have basically no idea over what happens with it, let alone any control. The GPLv3 does not include a requirement to release the source for the server component, so the best you can do is reimplement the entire effective functioning of the product from scratch. Also, because the GPLv3 has no such requirement and probably couldn't, that effectively is a motivation for the manufacturer to move as much processing server-side as possible.

(And at that point, you may have a better time building the device yourself or more practically buying it from a more friendly hardware manufacturer. Even for the TiVo, if you're going to have to implement a DVR yourself, the video capture card and the hard disk are the easiest part of it.)

I can see a limited use case for things like smart TVs to just sort of prevent them from communicating with the network at all, but a firewall can do that just fine - and it's a lot more practical for most people than hacking the device firmware.

My claim isn't that there's no use for freedom on consumer devices with on-board software - quite the opposite. My claim is that the specific thing the GPLv3 tried to save us from hasn't been the priority it was made out to be, and in the process it just made free software worse. I am totally open to a counterargument - is there a device you have where a) it does run some GPL (any version) code and b) there is some meaningful change you could make to the code it runs?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#303
post #242
post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

I did not even know about this stuff (but can now see what are perhaps the reasons why my comment elsewhere in the thread are being downvoted). Is there a place I can quickly catch up on these events? I also don't think that the foot skin eating thing is a non-starter. People are weird; I can live with that. But the other stuff is obviously troubling.

> Is there a place I can quickly catch up on these events?

Summary: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#304
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be acceptable to you but for me and a lot of people, it is not. The solution for me is to never associate or work with the FSF and advocate against this type of behavior from "leaders" in our industry and field.

The age of consent in some European countries is generally lower than the US, some as low as 14, most about 15 with some having 16¹. If we assume that the majority of citizens of such a country agree that their country has a reasonable age, would your response then be to “never associate or work with” anyone from that country? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#/media/File:Age...

I would not work with anyone who held those views, regardless of which country they were from. I find it abhorrent and especially so in the context of work.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#305
I think there's a lot of rhetoric that implicitly, or even explicitly, insists that there are easily defined bright lines here: "Say [thing X] and you should definitively be out, full stop" vs. "Anything you say or do 'off the clock' has no bearing on your work whatsoever, no way no how." I'm extremely doubtful those lines actually exist. Context matters, and in practice -- for both good and ill -- the social norms and mores of the time, place, and organizations in question are going to come into play, and it's just unrealistic to expect otherwise.

And, sure, this is political in some real sense, but it's not just the politics of "the other side." A C-suite executive at Patagonia is likely to be not-so-politely asked to find other work if they start publicly pushing Trumpworld's stolen election propaganda; a C-suite executive at a Catholic hospital is going to face capital-Q Questions if it comes out that they've donated tens of thousands of dollars to Planned Parenthood. What you do "off the clock" matters to your employer if they feel it reflects badly on them. This is not some kind of brand new thing that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for those angry millennials with their twitters and their social justices. What's changed over time are the specifics of Things Perceived To Reflect Badly.

With respect to RMS, there have been reports about his bad social behavior for decades. In the last few years, our attitudes toward harassing behavior has grown a lot less tolerant, and "Ha ha, that's just ol' creepy Bob, what are you gonna do, am I right" is no longer seen as a sufficient response. "Sure, Bob is a creep, but he's done such great work, so just suck it up, Buttercup" sends a message to prospective employees, customers, donors, sponsors, vendors, etc., that companies and organizations are increasingly deciding that they do not want to send. I understand that this sucks for the ol' creepy Bobs of the world, but is that really sufficient reason to default to taking Bob's side?

The pro-RMS thread that runs through these comments[1] is, and I am only barely paraphrasing here, Stallman's contributions to the free software movement are so important they excuse his documented mistreatment of others for decades. In other words: be a big enough name in free software and you can get away with anything, baby.

And maybe you're comfortable with that message. But I'm not at all sure you should be.

[1] There is also a pro-RMS thread running through these comments which I can paraphrase as "but he was only hypothetically defending pedophilia and it's so dishonest of the media to present that as if it were weird and disturbing in any possible way," which, I mean, look. There's a reasonable discussion to be had about how "Think of the Children" has become the third rail of all internet discussions, but this ain't it, chief.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#307

It is great that RMS is trying to explore his emotional capacity and relate to others! Shocking in these comments how many people believe that people are not responsible for their own emotions. No one can "hurt another" emotionally. It is up to each person to take the mature (and logical) stance that "I am responsible for my emotions". If something someone does or says "hurts me" emotionally, it is because I have cho…

People aren't robots, they are emotionally connected biological beings. Emotions are a biological response. You can't just 100% control your emotions any more than you can 100% control your thyroid.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#308
> False accusations -- real or imaginary, against me or against others -- especially anger me.

I feel similarly and wonder what this is called or how many others feel similarly. It’s curious to me as I try to solve problems and filter truth from false just in general everyday life so when someone says something that seems false it sticks out to me in my thoughts. I stopped trying to correct this as it seems most people aren’t very receptive, to say the least :) I’m not sure if people don’t care because being wrong isn’t the most important part, or they already know it’s false and don’t care.

It’s fun learning about how different people see the world and I think it’s cool how many different people there are in the world and people have really different world views than I.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#309
post #303
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not even know about this stuff (but can now see what are perhaps the reasons why my comment elsewhere in the thread are being downvoted). Is there a place I can quickly catch up on these events? I also don't think that the foot skin eating thing is a non-starter. People are weird; I can live with that. But the other stuff is obviously troubling.

> Is there a place I can quickly catch up on these events? Summary: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

To the OP: that article is extremely biased in favor of RMS and focuses extremely narrowly on the Epstein/Minsky e-mails. Unfortunately I do not know of a good collection of his other failings (outside of the Minsky e-mails) to provide as a counter.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#310
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the emacs virgin thing if it really was aimed directly at a young woman in the audience is not much better than sexual harassment.

I was shocked reading your comment - how could you know about an incident that I thought only 2-3 people witnessed, an event where I was present but few other people were? Then I googled it, and it turns out that you are likely referring to a larger, different event where I was not present. It seems like he did this a lot, then? He definitely harassed a young woman at an event I organized, and did a 1-1 version of th…

Yeah :/. So, I also (well, used to... damn pandemic ;P) travel around talking to people--largely college students, as I got caught up in the whole "hackathon circuit"--about open source and, specifically, free software (I am sometimes even put in debate-style panels with people like Kyle Fogel from the Apache Foundation, so I can argue for GPL over BSD); and I have just run into too many people (and I don't mean "merely" recently, after all the recent public brouhaha about RMS: I have been doing this for a long time, and haven't even been able to do it in over a year anyway) who were turned off of the whole movement by Richard Stallman pulling stuff like this and making the entire audience unhappy and uncomfortable. I seriously would get people coming up to me afterwards saying stuff like "you know, I wasn't expecting much from your talk, because RMS came last year and [random horrible stuff happened], but you actually made this all sound so reasonable", and then I spend the weekend hanging out with everyone (which I can't imagine RMS ever getting to do) and I get converts. I just don't think RMS is winning over anywhere near as many people as he is turning away :/. And like, people can blame this on "neurological issues" all they want--and seriously: even let's assume for a moment that somehow he does have a neurological issue that makes everyone think he is misogynist even though he isn't (which I think is a strange disorder, but let's grant it for a moment)--at the end of the day it doesn't change the reality that he needs to stop being the public figurehead of this critical organization (one I fully understand he started) for the good of his own movement... and frankly, he should be realizing this himself and actually truly "stepping down" as opposed to requiring us to force him out :(.
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