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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#291

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #261
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As he's a visible spokesperson, that means his blog content is part of his overall role, and not something that can be treated in isolation." I agree this is de facto the case. It's kind of sad, though, and I don't think the world needs to be this way. There should be a way for an e.g. CEO or similar to have a life and persona outside of a job.

There are various ways to do that. Plenty of famous people manage to figure it out. That's not what RMS was after. He's putting this stuff up on his blog, which he uses for activism, not abstract philosophical inquiry.

...yeah, and activism should be an acceptable (albeit insufferable) part of one's non-work persona.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#292

Post by teddyh »

amaccuish wrote: post #256
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _other_times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia...". He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. He applies normative principles to it and can't see why it's wrong (e.g., age of consent varies...why would…

> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong Wtf does that have to do with free software? And why does he keep doing this over and over again? There's no smoke without fire

Why are you so obsessed with RMS? There's no smoke without fire.

/s

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#293

Post by solosoyokaze »

vorpalhex wrote: post #283
solosoyokaze wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. This didn't prove false. The article we're commenting on is literally RMS defending Minsky who was credibly accused of raping a minor provided by Epstein. RMS is still connecting himself to Epstein.

We used to have a word for defending the accused, "Justice". Accusation by a single terrified and led witness does not give license to treat someone like a convict.

He's not providing "justice", he's tainting open source software. You can read the victim's own thoughts on Stallman:

https://twitter.com/VRSVirginia/status/1174108999039406080

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#295

Post by hnbad »

rbanffy wrote: post #138

It kind of misses the point it was never just about Minsky and Epstein. > I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Did anyone explain him that he downplayed the role of women in the GNU project? Janis Johnson, Sandra Loosemore, and Dorit Nuzman, to name a few, all did extraordinary w…

This is really the crux of it. His "apology" boils down to "I'm on the spectrum, I'm not good with people stuff". Which would be fine, except what he did was a recurring theme throughout his career and belied sexist and misogynist attitudes. Maybe some people egged him on, but he chose to ignore the people who told him no and those who told him it made them uncomfortable or that it was abusive.

This isn't about not understanding social cues or lacking intuitive empathy, this is about actively choosing to ignore victims telling you what you're doing to them because your position allows you to get away with it.

This isn't the first time I've seen autism (or the implication thereof) being used to reframe gross sexual misconduct as naïve ignorance and it's simply disgusting and insulting towards other autistics who can't read emotions and are socially awkward but understand consent.

What he did went well beyond "locker room" jokes like the Emacs virgins thing or "tonedeaf" postulating about the age of consent. The reason he didn't understand that it was wrong wasn't that he's bad at social cues, it's that he didn't think of women as human beings.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#296

Post by solosoyokaze »

Ancapistani wrote: post #288
solosoyokaze wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He even continues to defend Minsky in this letter. It's not even an apology, it's just more of the same.

> He even continues to defend Minsky in this letter. Honest question - is there a way in which someone could not immediately condemn Minsky without defending him?

Say nothing. That's what a competent leader would do. No one wanted RMS's take on Minsky (or pedophilia in general, which he also offered up).

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#297

Post by pseudalopex »

simion314 wrote: post #289
jcranmer wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't downvote articles; you can only flag them [if you want to express disapproval].

Yeah, I was confused, we can't downvote. IMO flag should only be used for offtopic or content that is against side rules. I nenver flagged any submission, even if I think is offtopic or low quality, I can ignore it, maybe the people that engaged it have other opinion so why I should decide for others what should they see on the home page. My proposal might not be better , so I admit I can be wrong and I let the HN st…

All submissions compete for attention.

Voting and commenting influence what submissions other people see too.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#298

Post by vidarh »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #226
craigsmansion wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit rich that you accuse those who didn't take the initial smear campaign at face value of moving the goal posts. First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. Then it was predatory behaviour at MIT with three quotes from over 3 decades, a sign on his door, and a mattress doused in implications. Then it was simply "making some people uncomfortable", which is sort of a given if you talk about free so…

> First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false. This didn't prove false. The article we're commenting on is literally RMS defending Minsky who was credibly accused of raping a minor provided by Epstein. RMS is still connecting himself to Epstein.

Maxwell was accused of directing Guiffre to have sex with Minsky by Guiffre in her deposition.

As far as I know there is no allegation from Guiffre or others that it actually happened, only that she was 'directed' to do so.

If I have missed sources that makes a clear allegation, I would appreciate hearing more.

Do you have actual sources saying otherwise, or are you inferring an allegation it actually happened from Guiffre's statement about the instructions she were given?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#299

Post by teddyh »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #240
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defffffinitely fair game at a university, then. I thought we were talking about the more abstract investigation of why it's wrong to have sex with minors. This sort of direct political stuff is regrettable but totally within the realm of acceptable.

It may be acceptable to you but for me and a lot of people, it is not. The solution for me is to never associate or work with the FSF and advocate against this type of behavior from "leaders" in our industry and field.

The age of consent in some European countries is generally lower than the US, some as low as 14, most about 15 with some having 16¹. If we assume that the majority of citizens of such a country agree that their country has a reasonable age, would your response then be to “never associate or work with” anyone from that country?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#/media/File:Age...

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#300

Post by iajrz »

hota_mazi wrote: post #130
henearkr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These social skills are crucial in this role. Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software. The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more spec…

> he is literally the only human completely implacable Not only is this assuredly false, but it's also the last thing we need in a position of leadership or even as a consultant. Understanding nuances is paramount for these positions.

> it's also the last thing we need in a position of leadership or even as a consultant.

On technical matters, you are correct; on moral matters it's a different story.

Think about the moral tragedies of history; we didn't need someone saying "maybe we should not be so evil; let's be less evil - not stop, because that's disruptive and I am not an extremist, but maybe dial it down a bit?"

On moral battlegrounds we need someone capable of saying "we have to stop, and no price is too high to pay in order to stop being evil". Someone who is willing to pay the price themselves, and make the price as low as possible for anyone that wishes to follow through. Nothing less than that suffices; "They enslave their children's children who make compromise with sin", to say it poetically.

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