RMS addresses the free software community • Hacker News Board

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#111

Post by tablespoon » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #83

tablespoon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no such thing as a retraction anymore, it’s just clarifications. I think journalism always mostly did "corrections." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correction_(newspaper)

Ah thank you, quite interesting. Allow me to clarify: when I was riding those words I had an article on a webpage in my mind. Because articles are so online now, it’s easy to change things and call them clarifications, and people miss the slight of hand that it might have been actually a retraction of statements. I do recall clarifications and amplifications in physical newspapers, always intriguing.

> Ah thank you, quite interesting. Allow me to clarify: when I was riding those words I had an article on a webpage in my mind. Because articles are so online now, it’s easy to change things and call them clarifications, and people miss the slight of hand that it might have been actually a retraction of statements.

For better or worse, online news articles are living documents now. Especially in breaking stories, I've seen them get updated over the day/week with all kinds of things (e.g. corrections, new developments, rewrites, etc.). Ideally they'd expose a revision history like Wikipedia, but that's probably more of a nice-to-have since their editorial processes aren't crowdsourced.

I suppose they've embraced some of the "move fast and break things" ethos of tech sector (because you can also fix things fast).

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#112

Post by danaris » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #56

stusmall wrote: post #39

"Later in life, I discovered that some people had negative reactions to my behavior, which I did not even know about. Tending to be direct and honest with my thoughts, I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid…

> These social skills are crucial in this role. Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software. The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more spec…

So make him a consultant. Make him an advisor or something.

In most organizations, "theorists" aren't the people in charge, no matter how cogent their theories.

Even if it's true that he's the "only human" who's capable of doing the job the best possible (in which case, as some other commenters noted, what happens if he drops dead tomorrow??), that doesn't justify allowing someone with a long history of abusive management and no apparent understanding of what made it abusive back into a management position.

If his prior pedophilia apologism were the only issue with him, then this more-or-less-apology might at least passably address that. It does nothing for his terrible personality in general and his tendency to be ableist, racist, misogynist, and just overall an asshole, any of which should disqualify him from such a public leadership role in the software community.

Keeping him there does so much harm to the image of programmers and software developers of all kinds worldwide.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#113

Post by mhh__ » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #56

stusmall wrote: post #39

"Later in life, I discovered that some people had negative reactions to my behavior, which I did not even know about. Tending to be direct and honest with my thoughts, I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid…

> These social skills are crucial in this role. Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software. The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more spec…

But what does that have to do with running the FSF day to day?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#114

Post by 0x_rs » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

imwillofficial wrote: post #82

RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. As well as making young women creeped out with unwanted advances. Is this who we want to glorify?

This is possibly not a fitting reply but your comment reads like satire to me, in all honesty. Both your claims in your first phrase I believe are wholly incorrect and could only originate from an out-of-context, accusatory source such as some articles linked in this thread that could not be more obviously manufactured to frame a very specific and offending perspective on a —ridiculously enough— discourse over semantics. There's no reason to state such falsehoods as definitive truths, unless one has covert goals or may have to reconsider their own views with a clear mind.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#115

Post by ocdtrekkie » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #53

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that wo…

It's a thing those of us on the spectrum have a bit of a challenge with. Whether people on the autism spectrum are high-functioning or not, probably the top question is "are you mad?" because it is often hard to tell.

However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#116

Post by AzzieElbab » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

Reads like - I can’t pass your compliance litmus tests and neither can I keep quiet. Please leave me alone

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#117

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

ziml77 wrote: post #26

Short and to the point. I like an apology that doesn't read like an essay. The more they ramble on the less genuine they feel. (I still don't believe this apology should have been considered necessary though)

[deleted]

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#118

Post by zajio1am » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

It is fascinating to me how humane and sincere his statement is (compared to empty phrases of corporate leaders and predictable rhetoric of culture warriors), considering his putative issues with tone-deafness and social clues.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#119

Post by MrRadar » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

Not to mention how badly he mismanaged the paid staff of the FSF which prompted them to unionize: https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393 I think, if anything, this is the strongest argument for why he should not be in a leadership position at the FSF.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#120

Post by fibonachos » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #53

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that wo…

It takes a great deal of work, and my accuracy is still meh, but it can be done. In person interactions wind up being a balancing act between parsing the social cues (verbal and nonverbal) and listening to the words being said. Never both at the same time. It can be exhausting and can take a day or two to fully recover from a prolonged day of socializing.