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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#101
post #68
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rms has a long history of what today qualifies as sexual harassment, independent of his current controversy surrounding the Minsky/Epstein mailing list posts. He's also a bad leader (a drama llama that causes misunderstandings and controversies at every turn) regardless of his extremely controversial views on things like pedophilia, the definition of "sexual assault", Epstein's victims, et c.

Are there sources for rms's long history of sexual harassment?

I think the emacs virgin thing if it really was aimed directly at a young woman in the audience is not much better than sexual harassment.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#102
post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

Sure, but does any of that keep you from empathizing with the content of this letter?

Yeah, it does. In context, this letter, especially given it's posted to the FSF site and not, say, his personal website, is meant to justify electing him to the board and address the backlash against it, and I don't really have much patience for a letter addressing only one of the many complaints people have against allowing him a leadership role. It's dismissive of them.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#103

RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. As well as making young women creeped out with unwanted advances. Is this who we want to glorify?

You are viciously attacking online people you probably don't know personally. What does that tell me about you? Can I see you in just one color and interpret all your life based on a few crumbs of information? Because that's what you're doing, you're framing a human in black and white. There are shades.

Also, you're pushing the issues you're complaining about above any other issues and considerations. Life is complex, there are more issues that matter. Please stop judging people based on single issues, it's reductive and cruel.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#104
post #89
post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

RMS disaffiliated from MIT in the '80s (see "Commencing the project" in https://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.en.html ), so I'm not sure that any headline saying "Famed MIT Computer Scientist..." to refer to him was interested in accuracy in the first place.

He resigned his paid job, but was later brought back as unpaid (and maybe just honorary) staff. I'm not sure if he ever actually did anything for MIT in that unpaid role. I kind of suspect it was a gift to grant him an office and other MIT resources for his work on GNU. [GNU itself used to have some small lab space at MIT, for use by other volunteers.] But even so, he was listed in the MIT directory as a Visiting Scientist.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#105

That's great, but the problem seems to be RMS's disruption of development activities. This doesn't change that. For example: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00... Imagine taking the time to publicly explain to an out-of-practice dev why some technical feature is needed, then being accused of a "pressure campaign" that requires the out-of-practice dev to consult privately, "with people I have…

Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children.

GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#106
post #5

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

> and [he] spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better

My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past.

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too.

Your response touches on something I have been trying to articulate for quite some time. For context: I am a bleeding-heart lefty and I am very often one of the loudmouths who critizes bad behaviour, including RMS's many social faux-pas (to put it politely).

What do we do with people who are trying to adapt, but their process doesn't look like we expect/wished it did?

His apology only barely grazes the actual points he was critized for. But he does admit to failing in the past, and tackles head-on how insufficient his responses were when it comes to women and his defense of Epstein-adjacent topics.

As much as we would like people to grovel and apologize the perfect way... they rarely do.

Is this, however, a good enough response that we can round it up to _redemption_? We want people to listen when we give them feedback on social stuff, we want them to engage us and take our pleas to heart, we want them to deconstruct themselves and do better.

One thing that is missing from these discussions, and this is bigger than the RMS stuff, is a sense of nuance and perspective. The Internet makes it really easy to escalate what should be a complaint into a full-on unforgivable offense... in some cases this is exactly what should be done and I welcome it, but in some others this escalation feels out of whack to me.

It is very hard to constructively argue about the proper intensity of our collective blowback to these offenses, because I haven't found a way to build a constructive defense of lesser-punishment that doesn't feel like a defense of the person or offense itself.

Back to RMS: while I will listen with an open mind to any oposing arguments you have, my subjective position is that this apology (although imperfect) is good-enough for me to believe he is trying.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#108
post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _other_times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia...". He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. He applies normative principles to it and can't see why it's wrong (e.g., age of consent varies...why would what is okay in one place be abominable 100 meters away?). I'm sure professional philosophers have written on this at length, and without being punished for going down the exact same road he has. But more importantly he doesn't understand very well that the mere mention of this line of inquiry is borderline reputation suicide because of [blue-team elite coastal] public mores idiosyncratic to 2020 rich western countries.

I'm also not sure why "inclusive" is a good criterion for FSF leader, it seems like just a hollow shibboleth buzzword at this point. People who harp on "inclusion" are usually the most interested in exclusion.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#109
post #17

Unrelated but, I'm curious: how does RMS pay the bills? The FSF board seat is a volunteer position and he no longer works for MIT. Is he paid as a consultant or something?

He has given paid talks for the last decade or two I believe.

Considering he was sleeping on a mattress in a MIT office, hopefully he saved a good portion of that in a bank account. He will also be eligible for social security and Medicare at his age, assuming he had enough working years in the social security system to qualify.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#110
post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

Too late, there is no redemption for Stallman. /s
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