RMS addresses the free software community • Hacker News Board

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#51

Post by b215826 » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #41

b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

This is an entirely dishonest framing of the articles which do not claim RMS defended Epstein, but do claim (correctly) that he defended Minsky.

What part of "Renowned MIT Scientist Defends Epstein" (the title of the Daily Beast article) do you have trouble understanding?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#52

Post by renewiltord » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #12

> Some have described me as being "tone-deaf," and that is fair. With my difficulty in understanding social cues, that tends to happen. For instance, I defended Professor Minsky on an M.I.T. mailing list after someone leaped to the conclusion that he was just guilty as Jeffrey Epstein. To my surprise, some thought my message defended Epstein. As I had stated previously, Epstein is a serial rapist, and rapists should…

> Minsky (71) had sex with a 17 year old who had been trafficked and coerced, in 2001. This was several years after (1999) rumours started spreading about "pedophile island".

Fabricated from whole cloth. Not even Virginia Giuffre alleges this.

Source: The depositions. Which clearly none of you have read.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#53

Post by luckylion » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #18

Zelphyr wrote: post #5

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too.

This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that would simply remove your muscle memory, you couldn't walk.

"Just do it consciously, lol" doesn't work, I think.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#54

Post by deft » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

People in the comments still demanding this isn't enough and calling for his expulsion... just why? At this point you've lost. Your social justice crusade has been defeated and cooler, wiser heads have prevailed. It's actually embarrassing seeing people rush in here screeching STILL.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#55

Post by eternalban » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

heinrichhartman wrote: post #15

I think message is genuine, and sympathize with his stand. His work on free software has been invaluable and shaped the software world in a good way. To paint the whole person as a "bad guy" ("terrible person") in the context of the latest developments always seemed off to me. However, usually apologies in this context backfire. Everything that you say about this can and will be used against you. This has happened to…

It does not matter one bit if contemporary audiences react as you predict. His statements, and that of his accusers, are all on the record.

I suspect RMS is made of sterner stuff, given his track record, and while no doubt these events must have exacted a psychological toll (after all, he is a human being) he must also be aware that there remain today many of us who deeply appreciate his principled positions regarding matters that affect us all.

And one remains hopeful that future generations that are afforded the necessary distance from conflated matters that cloud contemporary judgment will reach a more balanced conclusion and give the man his due credit.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#56

Post by henearkr » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

stusmall wrote: post #39

"Later in life, I discovered that some people had negative reactions to my behavior, which I did not even know about. Tending to be direct and honest with my thoughts, I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid…

>These social skills are crucial in this role.

Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software.

The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more specifically to art.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#57

Post by sneak » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

Zelphyr wrote: post #5

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.

This is an attempt to paper over the fact that FSF intends to retain him in a leadership position and that they think it was just a failure of their announcing it properly.

An actual apology by him or the fsf involved rectifying the error of putting rms in a position of leadership.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#58

Post by Kiro » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

not_again1234 wrote: post #34

DanBC wrote: post #12

> Some have described me as being "tone-deaf," and that is fair. With my difficulty in understanding social cues, that tends to happen. For instance, I defended Professor Minsky on an M.I.T. mailing list after someone leaped to the conclusion that he was just guilty as Jeffrey Epstein. To my surprise, some thought my message defended Epstein. As I had stated previously, Epstein is a serial rapist, and rapists should…

https://time.com/5651186/jeffrey-epstein-investigation-co-co... "Minsky’s widow, Gloria Rudisch, denied he had sex with Giuffre or any other girls, telling the New York Post that the couple had visited Epstein a few times, but that she was always with her husband."

His email was written with the presumption that he slept with her:

> Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it).

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#59

Post by pseudalopex » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #41

b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

This is an entirely dishonest framing of the articles which do not claim RMS defended Epstein, but do claim (correctly) that he defended Minsky.

The first headline is "Renowned MIT Scientist Defends Epstein".

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#60

Post by Zelphyr » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #18

Zelphyr wrote: post #5

I really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

Genuine question: if he had actually used the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologize", would that have made you feel better about what he said?