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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#41

Post by DanBC »

b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

This is an entirely dishonest framing of the articles which do not claim RMS defended Epstein, but do claim (correctly) that he defended Minsky.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#42

Post by robinsoh »

secondcoming wrote: post #27
DanBC wrote: post #12

> Some have described me as being "tone-deaf," and that is fair. With my difficulty in understanding social cues, that tends to happen. For instance, I defended Professor Minsky on an M.I.T. mailing list after someone leaped to the conclusion that he was just guilty as Jeffrey Epstein. To my surprise, some thought my message defended Epstein. As I had stated previously, Epstein is a serial rapist, and rapists should…

I don't recall it ever having been proven that Minksy had sex with anyone. I'm obviously open to being corrected on this.

> I don't recall it ever having been proven that Minksy had sex with anyone. I'm obviously open to being corrected on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky

" The Minskytron or "Three Position Display" running on the Computer History Museum's PDP-1, 2007

In 1952, Minsky married pediatrician Gloria Rudisch; together they had three children"

I am assuming it was through sex.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#43

Post by secondcoming »

defen wrote: post #38
DanBC wrote: post #12

> Some have described me as being "tone-deaf," and that is fair. With my difficulty in understanding social cues, that tends to happen. For instance, I defended Professor Minsky on an M.I.T. mailing list after someone leaped to the conclusion that he was just guilty as Jeffrey Epstein. To my surprise, some thought my message defended Epstein. As I had stated previously, Epstein is a serial rapist, and rapists should…

> Minsky (71) had sex with a 17 year old who had been trafficked and coerced, in 2001. You're doing the exact thing that journalists did when they condemned RMS. Virginia Giuffre testified that Epstein directed her to have sex with Minsky; however she has not said that they actually had sex. His ex-wife also claims that she was with him the entire time they were on the island.

Maybe DanBC was there too and knows the truth.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#44

Post by Kiro »

b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

Apologize for what? This post doesn't make him less accountable for what he wrote in that email.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#45

Post by secondcoming »

robinsoh wrote: post #42
secondcoming wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recall it ever having been proven that Minksy had sex with anyone. I'm obviously open to being corrected on this.

> I don't recall it ever having been proven that Minksy had sex with anyone. I'm obviously open to being corrected on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky " The Minskytron or "Three Position Display" running on the Computer History Museum's PDP-1, 2007 In 1952, Minsky married pediatrician Gloria Rudisch; together they had three children" I am assuming it was through sex.

Touché

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#46

Post by sneak »

heinrichhartman wrote: post #15

I think message is genuine, and sympathize with his stand. His work on free software has been invaluable and shaped the software world in a good way. To paint the whole person as a "bad guy" ("terrible person") in the context of the latest developments always seemed off to me. However, usually apologies in this context backfire. Everything that you say about this can and will be used against you. This has happened to…

rms has a long history of what today qualifies as sexual harassment, independent of his current controversy surrounding the Minsky/Epstein mailing list posts.

He's also a bad leader (a drama llama that causes misunderstandings and controversies at every turn) regardless of his extremely controversial views on things like pedophilia, the definition of "sexual assault", Epstein's victims, et c.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#47

Post by underseacables »

b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

No, no that’s not how journalism works. They report the FACTS as they see them. /s

There’s no such thing as a retraction anymore, it’s just clarifications. I would have more faith in the media if they admitted when they were wrong, or at least presented, thoughtfully considered, opposing viewpoints. My faith in the media perhaps really took its first hit with Nick Sandman. I just felt weird that all these people were coming down on a kid. The level of vitriol was disturbing, and many it seems were wrong. I expect CNN to say so, but I don’t think they will, and thus the conflict remains unresolved.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#48

Post by whatshisface »

stusmall wrote: post #39

"Later in life, I discovered that some people had negative reactions to my behavior, which I did not even know about. Tending to be direct and honest with my thoughts, I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid…

>These social skills are crucial in this role.

For better or worse, a huge number of very successful leaders have had problems with losing their temper. Not that we should idolize poor anger control, of course.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#49

Post by Osmose »

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot skin eating thing), and the fact that the FSF under Stallman kinda lost to open source anyway and hasn't really done anything besides virtue signal to others about how pure and ethical they are.
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