French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights • Hacker News Board

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#321

Post by nraynaud » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

ahartmetz wrote: post #132

nraynaud wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

remember that now you're supposed to be in the train 20min in advance, and connecting across stations in Paris with heavy luggage and kids is a shit show (and a non-starter for foreigners, they just call a taxi, and as the most visited country in the world, this detail should matter) But I hope it increases the frequency of bullet trains to and from CDG TGV, this train station never had a useful train time for my air…

> now you're supposed to be in the train 20min in advance Oh, why is that? Never heard of it or had to do it anywhere. My last train trip starting from France was about 15 years ago, though. And most trains have several stops so you couldn't possibly be so early except at the initial departure, not without slowing down the whole trip unacceptably.

So a train driver closed the doors 2 minutes early once, letting a lawyer who could prove he was on time stranded in the train station instead of appearing in court, and now our world has changed. This is a true story, and this is really the beginning of the change. They also hired people from the airplane industrie, so they now control some stuff in the station instead of during the travel, robbing everybody of more time. It just baffles me that I can't rush to the train and buy my ticket inside, where I have nothing better to do anyways.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#322

Post by gsnedders » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:27 AM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #292

gsnedders wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though note from Wikipedia ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_de_Lyon_à_Bordeaux ) the projected journey time is 6h47, whereas going via Paris (and crossing by Metro) takes around 5h52, and there are a few connections via Massy TGV taking around 5h31. That said, I think this exactly shows one of the benefits of liberialisation of the rail market: it allows other companies to serve routes that the nationalised oper…

> That said, I think this exactly shows one of the benefits of liberialisation of the rail market: it allows other companies to serve routes that the nationalised operator does not want to. It really does not. Private companies won’t invest in the un-profitable routes that are the most important for half the country. Instead, they’ll eat into the margins of the established companies on high profit main lines, which a…

Is cross-subsidy really the best way to fund unprofitable routes, though? It makes sense if you view the state's rail budget as something that needs to be balanced in and of itself, but that's a matter of government accounting, moving where the revenue comes from, rather than a business in its own right.

Relying on cross-subsidy you're essentially overcharging those taking the profitable lines, versus raising the subsidy required through general taxation. At least in the majority of cases, I'd expect cross-subsidy to be a form of regressive tax, quite possibly skewed towards middle-income groups.

And it's not like those taking the profitable routes are getting disproportionate benefit from the unprofitable ones; the benefit from maintaining the unprofitable routes is derived from both the local economy and through benefiting the national economy, and as such it makes sense that it come from general taxation rather than fare-box revenue from profitable routes.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#323

Post by MarcusE1W » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

fredophile wrote: post #202

inter_netuser wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the rail to Bergen, in Norway. Shot in 4K. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atyvdC15HFA

A quick search on Google tells me that train goes at 160 km/h. Not exactly high speed. It looks like they don't run into too many problems with weather related cancelations or delays though [0]. [0] https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/article/74614/norway-rai...

High speed trains in snow are indeed more difficult as the speed creates under pressure between the ground and the train. So much that even stones have to be remove otherwise they hit the train all the time.

This under pressure sucks up the snow and plasters it to the train.

In Germany at least ICE train speed is reduced (despite their name ;-) if there is snow on the track.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#324

Post by wink » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #4

There is no reason to fly short distance if you want to go from city center to city center. However, if you're already arriving or leaving on a long distance flight, the whole overhead of getting to/from/through the airport disappears and those 1.5 hours start making a difference. I think forcing companies to advertise more honest flight durations and prices could make a huge difference. If the airline tells you that…

I think your experience may be jaded from the one side as much as mine is from the other side.

Your example assumes the same level of quality and guarantee of timely arrival.

Maybe it's just me but I've had such bad luck with trains in Germany that if I need to be somewhere I will fly or take a train one hour earlier. Or two. It was a running joke at my former company that every single time I visited our other office my reserved spot in an ICE was cancelled or the whole train was changed to an IC (yay, working with a laptop on your lap).

I think of all the times I've taken a plane in my life there was major delay twice - and one was at the other end of world, so a single time starting from here.

And no, I'm not one to regularly fly (and I hate to do it) but if you for example take Munich - Berlin or Munich - Hamburg, if I need to be there in the morning I'd need to take a train the day before and pay for a night in the hotel, or I fly in the morning. Proper night trains would solve that but then it might still be a wasted evening in a hotel room whereas I have no problem getting up at 4 am and catch a plane at 7.

For clarity: while part of my story doesn't apply for "train rides of 2.5h" the gist is the same. If I don't trust that the 6:30 train will make me arrive on time at 9:00 I'd need to take one at 5:30 or 4:30.

Also I fully support this ban. I'm just not buying the time+stress argument.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#325

Post by killtimeatwork » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:14 AM UTC

plantain wrote: post #168

Sharlin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And flights costing 29 EUR are simply a market (and policy) failure. In no reasonable sustainably operating economy would we ever have gotten into a situation of flights being cheaper than train trips.

Flights don't pay VAT, for some unfathomably baffling reason. Train tickets do. It's not just a market failure, it's been engineered this way.

Depends on the country? Domestic flights in Poland are taxed at 8% VAT. International flights are at 0% VAT.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#326

Post by schmidp » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:20 AM UTC

wink wrote: post #324

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #4

There is no reason to fly short distance if you want to go from city center to city center. However, if you're already arriving or leaving on a long distance flight, the whole overhead of getting to/from/through the airport disappears and those 1.5 hours start making a difference. I think forcing companies to advertise more honest flight durations and prices could make a huge difference. If the airline tells you that…

I think your experience may be jaded from the one side as much as mine is from the other side. Your example assumes the same level of quality and guarantee of timely arrival. Maybe it's just me but I've had such bad luck with trains in Germany that if I need to be somewhere I will fly or take a train one hour earlier. Or two. It was a running joke at my former company that every single time I visited our other office…

And that’s why I believe self driving cars will kill public transport as well as short leg flying. I already prefer the Tesla autopilot on longer highway drives to trains. As soon as I can really take my eyes off at the motorway I have not much reason to fly anymore (before Covid I had 30-50 flights in one year), except long distance.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#327

Post by mFixman » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:25 AM UTC

fy20 wrote: post #272

I grew up in the UK and from a late teen until my mid twenties I travelled by train across the country every week or so. I took the train as it was convenient for my route (no changes) and it didn't make sense to have a car for the rare times I used it (I'd commute to work by train or bike). There were long distance busses, but the times weren't convenient and they had even less leg room than aircraft. The one thing…

Besides the points all the other commenters made, there is an issue of congestion.

Trains and train tracks in the UK are _massively_ over-capacity. The West Coast Main Line, which is the main connection point between London and most of the Midlands and the North is the most congested train track in Europe.

Trains in the UK are expensive because we are decades behind in rail infrastructure spending while airports were targets of massive spending thanks to the boom in international low-cost flights in the 2000s and 2010s. HS2 should make train prices slightly more palpable, and hopefully more projects will follow.

Also, advance open-return tickets bought 24h in advance are massively cheaper than tickets last-minute tickets.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#328

Post by mFixman » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

thitcanh wrote: post #289

Semi-related: Do you think we’ll ever see a substantial reduction of pre-flight times? Why can’t we go through check-in and board directly, after an immediate security check? (Needless to say, this requires a brand new type of airport) Some airports are in a good position to implement this already: Singapore airport has security checks right at the gate so you go through them and wait a short time in the seating area…

It might be different outside of Europe, but we did go through a significant reduction in pre-flight times in our lifetimes: I remember scrambling with my family to arrive to the airport 3–4 hours in advance and spending all that time queuing.

Now for most of my flights I just check-in online, arrive to the airport an hour before departure, and spend 45 minutes and jaywalking around the airport while drinking overpriced coffee.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#329

Post by benhurmarcel » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:33 AM UTC

netfortius wrote: post #185

In France I would never consider flying, when I could take the TGV. The level of comfort of a 1st class train ticket vs an economy airflight (space and positioning of seat) + ability to move around + enjoying the scenery + no worries about the airport hassles / security checkpoints / luggage check-in and check-out, and transportation from airport to the center of the city, always made the choice very easy fo me.

It’s a lot more expensive though. Nice if you can afford it.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#330

Post by dopidopHN » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 11:11 AM UTC

pjerem wrote: post #271

adrianN wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK the French rail system is set up so that Paris-X is a good connection for most X, but travel between city pairs that don't contain Paris is much more difficult... because you have to travel via Paris.

Exactly that. And Paris is not really geographically at the center of France.

Define center.

Why do you think I was living there? Why is 1/5 and more of our population living there ?

It’s the economical center of the country. And it’s been design intentionally this way dating back to before the revolution.

It’s infuriating in many aspect. But it’s not relevant to the conversation of fly travel for distance under 3h in train. ( you can do Paris-Marseille in exactly 3h with fast train. It’s 80% of the nord-sud distance of the country. And it take 6h by car )