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MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

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Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#61

Post by bane »

One really great way to think of MiSTer is as a living documentation project that results in documented and working system hardware vs MAME which is focused on documenting working system software. It just so happens if you have working hardware you can run the software meant for it (MiSTer) and from the other end if you want software to work you need a pretty good idea what the hardware is supposed to be doing.

They're basically similar efforts but approaching the problem from a different point of view.

Given how hard FPGA programming is, the work in MiSTer is quite magnificent.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#63

Post by nanoscopic »

The main problem that remains with emulation and virtualization is that there are few legal ways to acquire ROMs.

It is possible to purchase hardware to pull images from cartridges and/or adapters to read old magnetic media, but most solutions are expensive and difficult to do compared to the ease of pirating.

What is really needed is global copyright reform to make it legal to share/acquire ROM images of games that you own in some form.

Additionally there needs to be some solution that allows sale and resale of licenses to games without the particular medium mattering.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#64

Post by deelowe »

bcrl wrote: post #23
TillE wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

byuu wrote a good article about this, unfortunately it's no longer available, but basically it should be self-evident that there's nothing inherently more accurate about hardware emulation. If you've actually decapped the original chips and duplicated them exactly in an FPGA, that's pretty cool. But otherwise it's just another approximation. The lower power requirements are nice, of course.

That's exactly what's happening. There are loads of projects going on right now decapping old chips and reverse engineering them. From old CPUs like the 6502 to the Amiga Alice chip. It's just a matter of time before most of the retro systems are fully reverse engineered and documented.

That's generally not what's happening with the mister cores. I haven't looked at all of them, but the ones I have studied are very high level in implementation.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#65

Post by astrange »

bcrl wrote: post #23
TillE wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

byuu wrote a good article about this, unfortunately it's no longer available, but basically it should be self-evident that there's nothing inherently more accurate about hardware emulation. If you've actually decapped the original chips and duplicated them exactly in an FPGA, that's pretty cool. But otherwise it's just another approximation. The lower power requirements are nice, of course.

That's exactly what's happening. There are loads of projects going on right now decapping old chips and reverse engineering them. From old CPUs like the 6502 to the Amiga Alice chip. It's just a matter of time before most of the retro systems are fully reverse engineered and documented.

FPGA cores are based on CPU emulators, so they aren't more accurate than the emulator, and decapping a chip doesn't help. FPGAs are written in languages like Verilog that are still high-level and do some probably misguided tricks to make it look like you're programming them with a vaguely C syntax.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#66

Post by foldor »

deelowe wrote: post #64
bcrl wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what's happening. There are loads of projects going on right now decapping old chips and reverse engineering them. From old CPUs like the 6502 to the Amiga Alice chip. It's just a matter of time before most of the retro systems are fully reverse engineered and documented.

That's generally not what's happening with the mister cores. I haven't looked at all of them, but the ones I have studied are very high level in implementation.

To the best of my knowledge, the Neo Geo core has certain chips based on a full decap and implementation in FPGA. Not the entire system though.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#67

Post by deelowe »

drewblaisdell wrote: post #11
tediousdemise wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Analogue Pocket[1] is exactly this (albeit proprietary). Out of the box it recreates GB, GBC, and GBA using the Altera Cyclone-V platform. [1] https://www.analogue.co/pocket

I wonder, why is there no DIY Analogue Pocket-style MiSTer project? Is the DE10-Nano too large or inefficient for this?

It was being worked on at one point. I forget who was doing it. They showed off mockups on smoke monsters streams, but I havent seen much of it in over a year.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#69

Post by klodolph »

tediousdemise wrote: post #45
klodolph wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Decapping” is a more intense version of delidding where you use chemical agents or something similarly extreme (laser, plasma, milling) to remove the package (ceramic, plastic). My understanding is that there are people who do it often enough that it is automated in the way you describe, but you still need someone with a lot of skill to spend serious time on it. Computer vision works wonders but there are errors whi…

Ah, that’s a good distinction. I’d be pretty scared of damaging the hardware by doing that, but I’m sure there are some really experienced folks out there that would appreciate the hardware donation.

Decapping destroys the hardware.

Re: MiSTer, an open-source FPGA gaming project

#70

Post by klodolph »

djmips wrote: post #43
klodolph wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most game consoles don’t do any of this, though. The gamepad is polled by software. On the NES and SNES, the buttons are connected to a shift register (e.g. 4021). The CPU triggers a latch and then reads out the shift register one bit at a time.

This was given as an example, not for you to straw man about the gamepad.

Don’t know what you’re getting at. You seem to have taken offense, and I think it’s because you misinterpreted what I wrote.
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