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Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#51

Post by briefcomment »

EarthLaunch wrote: post #38
briefcomment wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People just want an asset that can't be manipulated away. If it takes tons of energy, or if it totally changes power dynamics, or if we need to transact in different ways, then so be it. No one is going to give up the opportunity to own something like this for any reason. Regardless of whether people like it or not, they will have to adapt, since there is probably no viable way to stop something like this when people…

People want such an asset, but it absolutely can viably be stopped. Governments outlawing it will lower the price and utility. Governments doing a 50% attack or similar will end it. What's interesting to me is that Proof of Work competes with government's Proof of Force. I wonder, is this a choice between running the world on math (or profit) versus running the world on democracy (or force)?

Governments are people too.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#52

Post by briefcomment »

throwamon wrote: post #31
briefcomment wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People just want an asset that can't be manipulated away. If it takes tons of energy, or if it totally changes power dynamics, or if we need to transact in different ways, then so be it. No one is going to give up the opportunity to own something like this for any reason. Regardless of whether people like it or not, they will have to adapt, since there is probably no viable way to stop something like this when people…

> then so be it yeah, and fuck living in an inhabitable planet

I feel like you're coming from a place of ignorance.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#53

Post by poundofshrimp »

dale_glass wrote: post #6
kierkegaard_s wrote: post #3

The people that write these articles haven't the faintest idea of the protocol and repeat the same tired arguments over and over again. Why does Bitcoin have to justify its energy usage when the legacy financial system does not? Who becomes the arbiter of what tech or sector deserves to draw on the grid?

The "legacy financial system" is far, FAR more energy efficient in comparison. Bitcoin's rising power usage doesn't achieve a greater capacity, it's simply the result of an arms race between miners. The faster others mine, the faster you must do so as well, if you want to keep making money. But Bitcoin's design results in that the increased power doesn't really do anything for the network. It doesn't make it faster,…

Increased power increases security of the Bitcoin network because it makes a potential 51% attack more expensive.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#54

Post by bko »

The energy cost of mining will always be bid up to approximately the net value of the reward. So as the price of Bitcoin goes up, so does the mining effort. If the price drops, the energy expended would drop as well.

It's important to note that the cost of energy its priced to is more or less the global lowest cost of energy. No one mines Bitcoin in Los Angeles during the summer. Bitcoin is a way to convert cheap or excess energy anywhere in the world into money, much of it renewable or energy that would go to waste. And most mining is centralized in a few locations for this reason. So doing a simple energy calculation is dishonest.

> The two essential features of a successful currency are that it is an effective form of exchange and a stable store of value, says Ken Rogoff, a professor of economics at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

> He says Bitcoin is neither

This made me chuckle. The reason the price of bitcoin (and hence the energy cost of mining) is going up is that people have lost faith in the monetary institutions. In a world where the US money supply can go up 23% in a given year with no end in sight is a world in which you can't trust your savings. We had a global pandemic and stock market is up 30% from pre-covid. This is insane. And people aren't dumb. They're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. In the meantime some find Bitcoin to be an effective hedge.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#55

Post by gus_massa »

jmfldn wrote: post #2

""If Bitcoin were to be adopted as a global reserve currency," he speculates, "the Bitcoin price will probably be in the millions, and those miners will have more money than the entire [US] Federal budget to spend on electricity." "We'd have to double our global energy production," he says with a laugh. "For Bitcoin." He says it also limits the number of transactions the system can process to about five per second. T…

Remember that every 4 years the amount of coins the miners get out of thin air halves, and after 2040 the miners will only get the fees.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#56

Post by danpalmer »

meowkit wrote: post #44
danpalmer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum does not use Proof of Stake, it is a proposed change that is being worked on, with a timeline of several years before it will be put into action, and that's only if the network accepts it.

> timeline of several years ETH 2.0 has launched in parallel with ETH 1.X. The timeline is ~1 year for final merge, not years. This is potentially going to be accelerated ( https://notes.ethereum.org/@vbuterin/B1mUf6DXO ). The "network" doesn't accept anything. ETH updates via hard forks. You either get on the train with the most support, or you don't. The majority wants proof-of-stake and there is already almost 4 m…

> ETH updates via hard forks. You either get on the train with the most support, or you don't.

This is what I mean by the network accepting. Admittedly there's a spectrum of win/loss as per the ratio of the two resulting networks, but I'd suggest that the stake based network being substantially smaller would essentially be a failure, especially if the mining is still happening.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#57

Post by neither_color »

jmfldn wrote: post #2

""If Bitcoin were to be adopted as a global reserve currency," he speculates, "the Bitcoin price will probably be in the millions, and those miners will have more money than the entire [US] Federal budget to spend on electricity." "We'd have to double our global energy production," he says with a laugh. "For Bitcoin." He says it also limits the number of transactions the system can process to about five per second. T…

If Bitcoin were to be adopted as a global reserve currency," he speculates, "the Bitcoin price will probably be in the millions, and those miners will have more money than the entire [US] Federal budget to spend on electricity.

If you spent the entire US federal budget on a global reserve currency that worked without a military that's a net positive for humanity though, isn't it?

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#58

Post by chabes »

> He says it also limits the number of transactions the system can process to about five per second.

This hasn’t been the case since segregated witness was integrated into the protocol.

This number is also “on-chain” transactions. The article fails to mention that most transactions are off chain, or are only settled on the main layer. No mention of second layer protocols that are made specifically for transactions (lightning), or off-chain uses, such as centralized databases like exchanges, or bearer bonds like opendime.

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#59

Post by neither_color »

throwamon wrote: post #31
briefcomment wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People just want an asset that can't be manipulated away. If it takes tons of energy, or if it totally changes power dynamics, or if we need to transact in different ways, then so be it. No one is going to give up the opportunity to own something like this for any reason. Regardless of whether people like it or not, they will have to adapt, since there is probably no viable way to stop something like this when people…

> then so be it yeah, and fuck living in an inhabitable planet

Yeah imagine air so toxic you can't go out in public without a mask on...

Re: Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

#60

Post by frankenst1 »

dale_glass wrote: post #6
kierkegaard_s wrote: post #3

The people that write these articles haven't the faintest idea of the protocol and repeat the same tired arguments over and over again. Why does Bitcoin have to justify its energy usage when the legacy financial system does not? Who becomes the arbiter of what tech or sector deserves to draw on the grid?

The "legacy financial system" is far, FAR more energy efficient in comparison. Bitcoin's rising power usage doesn't achieve a greater capacity, it's simply the result of an arms race between miners. The faster others mine, the faster you must do so as well, if you want to keep making money. But Bitcoin's design results in that the increased power doesn't really do anything for the network. It doesn't make it faster,…

> The "legacy financial system" is far, FAR more energy efficient in comparison.

Citation needed. The legacy financial system has a huge infrastructure behind it to secure and maintain it (buildings, transport, security, ...). I would assume the US Petrodollar alone probably exceeds Bitcoin's consumption of resources (I don't have any sources though).

> Even Bitcoin Cash, which copies the same stupid design is a more attractive option due to that they increased the block size limit.

BCH is a scam. Not because they assume that the removal of the block size limit comes without any costs, but because it regularly splits after influential but narcissistic 'leaders' attempt to grab more power and because its community continues to justify deceitful tactics to promote BCH and trick people into buying BCH when they expected Bitcoin.

In fact, the lie that BCH is more energy efficient than Bitcoin is just that, another BCH advertising lie. Energy consumption is a function of block reward only (mined coins + tx fees). Currently miners are rewarded ~$400K for Bitcoin and ~6K for BCH. BCH would consume exactly as much energy as Bitcoin if BCH's prices or number of transactions would rise accordingly.

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