The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor • Hacker News Board

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#121

Post by astrange » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 12:52 PM UTC

djbebs wrote: post #99

astrange wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably wouldn't be a good idea because demand would collapse, and there's no work without customers. This is actually why economics is called the "dismal science", it's not because everyone hates economists, a slave-owner gave it that name because he was mad economists didn't like slavery.

Given the low income/wealth of the people doing the work, that's not a convincing argument. There's a reason why overall income didn't really go down in 2020 (and even increased in some places), and thats because poor people don't actually make that much money, nor do they provide any significant value.

Poor people’s income went up in the US, and the poverty level decreased, because we actually did a proper economic stimulus for once instead of an undersized one like in 2010.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#122

Post by literallycancer » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 12:59 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #89

barry-cotter wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The educational effects of school start times Delaying secondary school start times can be a cost-effective policy to improve students’ grades and test scores > The combination of changing sleep patterns in adolescence and early school start times leaves secondary school classrooms filled with sleep-deprived students. Evidence is growing that having adolescents start school later in the morning improves grades and…

I grew up in rural Canada, and we had busses. Some kids came in from 60+ miles away. I recall quite a bit about school, and yet no one really complained about getting up at 5 to 6am. Of course, most kids lived on farms, some even had chores before going to school, and early to bed, early to rise was normal. We had a few antenna TV stations, no cable, VCRs weren't around for the average family, and of course no Intern…

Most developed countries are far enough from the equator that the amount of daylight is very different during different parts of the year. Perhaps it would make sense to base the schedule around sunrise and sunset rather than around arbitrary numbers?

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#123

Post by Tenoke » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

Pyramus wrote: post #114

Tenoke wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long before that specific book came out. If you look at how they arrived at the recommendation here, a lot of it was based on discussions and voting by 15 experts chosen by the US Department of Health. Actual studies are much less conclusive (see the one we are commenting on for example) and the evidence for 8 hours of sleep is shaky and the difference from 6 to 8 is rarely especially big even when it is supported wi…

This is one of my favourite topics that seems straightforward (What's the optimal sleep length?) but is a lot more tricky. > If you go through actual studies and systematic reviews it is really hard to make much of a case that 6 hours is much worse (if at all) than 8, yet alone anything more than that. The absence of evidence that 6 is much worse than 8 hours is not evidence that 6 is not much worse than 8 hours. It…

>The absence of evidence that 6 is much worse than 8 hours is not evidence that 6 is not much worse than 8 hours.

It's not absense of evidence as in hasn't been tested - they have been compared and it doesn't really come off as worse or at best only a little worse (and in some cases better than 8).

>It doesn't matter that much in this case because we already agree that it's worse - the question is how much worse.

Who is this 'we'? My whole point is that people have this assumption and keep looking for ways to justify it even when confronted with evidence that it might not be the case as in the study posted here or the systematic review I posted.

>and here we see exactly the adverse health outcomes you cited (and a lot more that you didn't cite) from [1].

But we don't see that. What I cited was that the evidence doesn't even suggest worse outcomes at 6 vs 8 hours in the biggest analyses out there.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#124

Post by dukeofdoom » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

schappim wrote: post #3

Those in the study were low-income adults in Chennai, India who sleep only 5.5 hours per night on average despite spending 8 hours in bed. The key takeaway was: > increased nighttime sleep had no detectable effects on cognition, productivity, decision-making, or well-being, and led to small decreases in labor supply. I find the result surprising. When I get under 6 hours I see a clear drop off in performance.

Having stayed in an Indian city. Traffic noise and pollution is horrendous. I can see how these two factors would mess with sleep quality and duration.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#125

Post by zikzak » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

DecayingOrganic wrote: post #62

buu700 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be a function of their jobs, which weren't specified in the abstract. While insufficient sleep might cause physical discomfort and contribute to long-term health problems, if their job weren't highly physically or mentally demanding, I suspect that most people could get through the day with negligible detriment to their short-term economic output after having a cup of coffee.

They employed 452 adults for a one-month data-entry job, which the authors say it's "a relatively cognitively-demanding task intended to be sensitive to sleep deprivation." As a side note, the study also says that short afternoon naps increased productivity.

Because of a combination of health, family, and time zone issues, I sleep approximately 5 hours a night (6 or 7 on weekends, if I'm lucky). I also have a complex work environment where the ability to think quickly, have excellent recall, and make quick decisions is paramount (I manage two dev teams working on two very different code bases, facing very different challenges). The people I work with are often "the smartest person in the room" and notice slips and mistakes.

Anyway, I get by through a combination of sneaking naps, trying not to sabotage myself by eating/living poorly, and catching up when I can.

I suspect the people in this study do the same. They probably doze when on public transportation, or trying to get the kids to sleep, you'll lay down with them and sleep a little. These stolen moments add up. Also, learning to recognize the signs of mental fatigue - if you can't get rest, then, you have to slow down and double check everything, not get irritable, and defer major decisions.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#126

Post by XorNot » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

DecayingOrganic wrote: post #62

buu700 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be a function of their jobs, which weren't specified in the abstract. While insufficient sleep might cause physical discomfort and contribute to long-term health problems, if their job weren't highly physically or mentally demanding, I suspect that most people could get through the day with negligible detriment to their short-term economic output after having a cup of coffee.

They employed 452 adults for a one-month data-entry job, which the authors say it's "a relatively cognitively-demanding task intended to be sensitive to sleep deprivation." As a side note, the study also says that short afternoon naps increased productivity.

I'm...extremely skeptical a generic "data entry job" is "high cognitive demand".

I can write new applications (atrociously) on basically no sleep, so I'm pretty skeptical "sit at this desk and enter these things" swings one way or the other (or even has much of an ability to quality check - at least the compiler will yell at me when I'm egregiously wrong).

I'd be far more interested if these people could be trusted to run heavy machinery on that schedule, or engage in a creative or hands on task like carpentry or welding. I suspect the results would be quite different.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#127

Post by Ghostt8117 » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:13 PM UTC

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...

This study used cognition, productivity, decision-making, and well-being as outcomes. It did not discuss the economic effects related to deleterious health from long-term sleep deprivation. Is higher productivity and output from increased time at work and decreased sleep time outweighed by the burden taken on by society from the other effects? I worry that some people will see this research and use it to feel better about making their employees work more hours and exploiting low income labor.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#128

Post by Causality1 » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:13 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #89

barry-cotter wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The educational effects of school start times Delaying secondary school start times can be a cost-effective policy to improve students’ grades and test scores > The combination of changing sleep patterns in adolescence and early school start times leaves secondary school classrooms filled with sleep-deprived students. Evidence is growing that having adolescents start school later in the morning improves grades and…

I grew up in rural Canada, and we had busses. Some kids came in from 60+ miles away. I recall quite a bit about school, and yet no one really complained about getting up at 5 to 6am. Of course, most kids lived on farms, some even had chores before going to school, and early to bed, early to rise was normal. We had a few antenna TV stations, no cable, VCRs weren't around for the average family, and of course no Intern…

As far as human biology is concerned, the entire concept of agriculture is a modern perversion. You can't use it to argue a particular behavior is the natural state.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#129

Post by XorNot » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #89

barry-cotter wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The educational effects of school start times Delaying secondary school start times can be a cost-effective policy to improve students’ grades and test scores > The combination of changing sleep patterns in adolescence and early school start times leaves secondary school classrooms filled with sleep-deprived students. Evidence is growing that having adolescents start school later in the morning improves grades and…

I grew up in rural Canada, and we had busses. Some kids came in from 60+ miles away. I recall quite a bit about school, and yet no one really complained about getting up at 5 to 6am. Of course, most kids lived on farms, some even had chores before going to school, and early to bed, early to rise was normal. We had a few antenna TV stations, no cable, VCRs weren't around for the average family, and of course no Intern…

Staying up late is much easier then getting up early. Anyone who gets up early and then has to be anywhere can speak to the general paralysis that involves, since the entire activity has to be planned around a very sharp time-based shutdown.

Stealing hours later is a lot easier, because any amount of sleep will still break up the day compared to none.

The other reason of course is that the real trick is just staying up longer then your parents: that's the only truly unsupervised freedom you have as a kid.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#130

Post by bkirkby » Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #47

buu700 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be a function of their jobs, which weren't specified in the abstract. While insufficient sleep might cause physical discomfort and contribute to long-term health problems, if their job weren't highly physically or mentally demanding, I suspect that most people could get through the day with negligible detriment to their short-term economic output after having a cup of coffee.

Poor people aren't doing brain work but instead do manual labor etc. It definitely should be a core part of any study to highlight this.

They employed 452 adults for a one-month data-entry job, which the authors say it's "a relatively cognitively-demanding task intended to be sensitive to sleep deprivation."