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Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

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Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#161
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that risable: my 11 year old has gone through the Python Crash Course book and built a basic Django pizza ordering website with a database in a day. That’s after work his way through much of the book, of course, but... as with any complex domain, the right teacher can make a big difference.

I think the key part is "in a few hours." No one, even professional devs, can do this "in a few hours" today.

I mean, I can, if you spot me Node/Express or even TS/React as the stack to use. Those are at the core of my professional discipline, and I know what's going on well enough with them that standing up a new project, complete with compilers, linters, style formatters, style linters, and so on, doesn't take me much.

But that's building on close to twenty years of working in the field, and a bit over three decades since I first put my hands on an Apple IIe's keyboard and wrote

    10 PRINT "HELLO"
    20 GOTO 10
Which is the key part, really - I wasn't far past 10 PRINT "HELLO" when I happened upon Hypercard, and I was still able to use it effectively with no more background than that. I don't know that there's anything comparable today.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very active open-source project called Ruffle[1] which aims to reimplement Flash Player to play the already existing Flash content. It runs in the browser via WASM as well as a standalone native app on all three desktop OSes. It doesn't support AS3 yet. But as far as I can tell, there's no one trying to recreate Flash the authoring program. Which is a big shame IMO. We need something that enables creativit…

Ruffle is pretty sweet, it resurrected Homestar Runner so I legally have to love it. As I said, I do think GameMaker is a reasonable enough substitute for stuff. While I find having to write shaders a bit irritating, you don't have to do it very often, and you can get up and running in a fairly short amount of time, and it's HTML5 exporter works pretty much perfectly from what I've played with. Is it as easy as Flash…

> Is it as easy as Flash? No, but it's still a pretty low barrier-to-entry for people

IMO it is too high. People who are not very much into tech are easily scared away by the need to write any code.

The thing with Flash is that when you launch it and create a new project, it looks, feels and works like a vector graphics editor — because it is one, and a very good one. You start drawing stuff. You start animating stuff. If all you want to make is a cartoon, ActionScript is entirely optional. But then you start wanting to add buttons that do simple things like "go to frame X". You copy-paste ActionScript for that. You go deeper and deeper into the ActionScript rabbit hole. Before you've realized it, you're coding complex logic for a game.

Flash lures you into wanting to write code by being an extremely easy to use animation editor. GameMaker repulses you by making writing code a prerequisite for going any further.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#163
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very active open-source project called Ruffle[1] which aims to reimplement Flash Player to play the already existing Flash content. It runs in the browser via WASM as well as a standalone native app on all three desktop OSes. It doesn't support AS3 yet. But as far as I can tell, there's no one trying to recreate Flash the authoring program. Which is a big shame IMO. We need something that enables creativit…

Yeah - now that a legacy of flash apps exist, having a runtime for them is important. But as you say - back in the old days, the truly important thing had nothing to do with the runtime, and had everything to do with the authoring program. Someone really needs to build something similar, and - because we're starting in a later era, the only influence it needs to take from flash lies in the UI/UX.

> the only influence it needs to take from flash lies in the UI/UX.

It could use the SWF file format too, there's nothing wrong with that IMO, and there already are many tools built around it.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#164
post #156

This is from 2011 and has been posted 6 or 7 times over the years. It has one interesting point: complexity is our industry’s addiction and downfall, but blames the wrong person. it’s not Steve Jobs’ fault that customers want what they want. The dream that we’d all be in a web based on HyperCard is no different from other the Squeak Smalltalk folks or LOGO fans etc. Elegant, beautiful interactive environments to help…

Squeak was started at Apple. But when Steve Jobs came back to Apple and decided to kill research, they had to move elsewhere. They were able to convince Apple to release Squeak as open source (their very first attempt to do so) so they wouldn't have to start over at their new home.

Yes, that’s more accurate than my account - thanks.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#165
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that risable: my 11 year old has gone through the Python Crash Course book and built a basic Django pizza ordering website with a database in a day. That’s after work his way through much of the book, of course, but... as with any complex domain, the right teacher can make a big difference.

I think the key part is "in a few hours." No one, even professional devs, can do this "in a few hours" today.

Depending on the toolchain, they absolutely can. Tech is more complex but there are still pathways to extreme productivity.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Xcode today isn't a substitute. But Xcode is a large step back from what NeXTstep had, at least when it comes to this kind of capability. The standalone Interface Builder had palettes, which you could fill with custom objects. There were third party palettes that allowed non-programmers to click together and configure custom applications for specific domains. There were palettes that extended the whole shebang…

That's no different to Xcode. You just need to decorate properties for simple things, and maybe write a setup method or two if you want live-updates (eg to pull a weather map from a server)... Google @IBInspectable and @IBDesignable. Unless you're saying that the most recent versions of Xcode don't do that, which would be news to me. I agree that it's not well-used, but that's not the fault of Xcode. As far as I can…

I am familiar with IBInspectable and IBDesignable, and have, for example, put my own Smalltalk and Postscript implementations in IB that way.

Not the same thing. At all. Not even close.

Palettes were final-packaged components that were at the same level as pre-built ones.

IBDesignable is a way for adding some interactivity to the views you are creating for an app while you're building said app. Like SwiftUI Previews. And it works about as well, that is not really at all.

With IBDesignable, Xcode was continually trying to build the entire dependency tree, meaning for example the entire Postscript interpreter. And failing >50% of the time, which then kills your view. I hear the same happens with SwiftUI previews once your project gets bigger. It certainly happened to me almost immediately when I was trying it out.

Again, they're not even close.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of AppleScript, which I don't miss at all.

the syntax is definitely an acquired taste for developers who come from an Algol-derived background, but it's hard to argue with the readability, even if writing it is a bit unintuitive at first applescript is also based on hypertalk, and I believe it suffered being too wide open and unfocused hyperscript is much more tightly focused on DOM manipulation and event handling, so my hope is that it doesn't suffer from th…

> it's hard to argue with the readability, even if writing it is a bit unintuitive at first

You can sure say that again. I always found it difficult to write nontrivial AppleScript code, which could have been ameliorated had the IDE been anything other than worthless for debugging.

But yes, it’s very easy to read.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#168

I've mentioned this several times on HN before, but I maintain a collection [1] of over 3,500 HyperCard stacks hosted by the Internet Archive. The great thing about modern technology is they're all emulated in-browser - just select the one you want and press start. You've got silly little animations[2], sound samplers[3], choose-your-own adventure stories[4], reference guides[5] and teaching materials[6]. But there's…

I had a look at the first link and tried two decks at random. The very first one was a "gayme" (Get it? We're gay! It was the early 1990's), the second one "models" was girls in bikinis (Nice dithering!). Point I'm making is that hypercard gave access to absolutely everyone. Which means it was used far outside the normal niche technical interests. It's sort of a neat archaeological dig into the mind of a broad spectr…

Earlier [1] I posted about Chuck "Jesus" [2] Farnham's HyperCard SmutStack in a previous discussion of HyperCard stack archives (but I still haven't tracked down a copy):

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22285675

Do you have the first commercial HyperCard stack ever released: the HyperCard SmutStack? Or SmutStack II, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, both by Chuck Farnham?

SmutStack was the first commercial HyperCard product available at rollout, released two weeks before HyperCard went public at a MacWorld Expo, cost $15, and made a lot of money (according to Chuck). SmutStack 2, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, had every type of sexual adventure you could imagine in it, including information about gays, lesbians, transgendered, HIV, safer sex, etc. Chuck was also the marketing guy for Mac Playmate, which got him on Geraldo, and sued by Playboy.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/could-the-ios-app-be-the-21st-...

>Smut Stack. One of the first commercial stacks available at the launch of HyperCard was Smut Stack, a hilarious collection (if you were in sixth grade) of somewhat naughty images that would make joke, present a popup image, or a fart sound when the viewer clicked on them. The author was Chuck Farnham of Chuck's Weird World fame.

>How did he do it? After all, HyperCard was a major secret down at Cupertino, even at that time before the wall of silence went up around Apple.

>It seems that Farnham was walking around the San Jose flea market in the spring of 1987 and spotted a couple of used Macs for sale. He was told that they were broken. Carting them home, he got them running and discovered several early builds of HyperCard as well as its programming environment. Fooling around with the program, he was able to build the Smut Stack, which sold out at the Boston Macworld Expo, being one of the only commercial stacks available at the show.

https://archive.org/stream/MacWorld_9008_August_1990/MacWorl...

Page 69 of https://archive.org/stream/MacWorld_9008_August_1990

>Famham's Choice

>This staunch defender was none other than Chuck Farnham, whom readers of this column will remember as the self-appointed gadfly known for rooting around in Apple’s trash cans. One of Farnham ’s myriad enterprises is Digital Deviations, whose products include the infamous SmutStack, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, and the multiple-disk set Sounds of Susan. The last comes in two versions: a $15 disk of generic sex noises and, for $10 more, a personalized version in which the talented Susan moans and groans using your name. I am not making this up.

>Farnham is frank about his participation in the Macintosh smut trade. “The problem with porno is generic,” he says, sounding for the briefest moment like Oliver Wendell Holmes. “When you do it, you have to make a commitment ... say you did it and say it’s yours. Most people would not stand up in front of God and country and say, ‘It’s mine.’ I don’t mind being called Mr. Scum Bag.”

>On the other hand, he admits cheerily, “There’s a huge market for sex stuff.” This despite the lack of true eroticism. “It’s a novelty,” says Farnham. Sort of the software equivalent of those ballpoint pens with the picture of a woman with a disappearing bikini.

https://archive.org/stream/NewComputerExpress110/NewComputer...

Page 18 of https://archive.org/stream/NewComputerExpress110

>“Chuck developed the first commercial stack, the Smutstack, which was released two weeks before HyperCard went public at a MacWorld Expo. He’s embarrassed how much money a silly collection of sounds, cartoons, and scans of naked women brought in. His later version, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, was also a hit.

[2] Easter Memories: Jesus Farnham on the Golden Gate Bridge Easter 1996:

https://www.facebook.com/cfarnham/posts/10159417391268060

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#169
post #159

The walled garden rant is anachronistic. HyperCard died because Apple stopped major work it. Circa 1987! There was no HyperCard team to put out a new version when Jobs returned in 1997, and a dying Apple couldn’t justify building one from scratch. It’s that simple. (Yes, there were post-1987 updates, none of which added fundamental critical features like color support. Which was introduced to the Mac lineup with the…

This was my thinking as well. But actually, looking at Wikipedia, it appears there was work on a Hypercard 3.0, which added a bunch of features and turned Hypercard stacks into a special kind of Quicktime movie. It was demoed as alpha quality and never finished... which sounds pretty much exactly like nearly all other Apple products at the time! Smart people doing cool stuff with little direction under bad management…

“Focusing is about saying no.” -Steve Jobs

https://donhopkins.medium.com/focusing-is-about-saying-no-st...

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#170
It's because I loved Hypercard+Hypertalk that I built the lambdaway project : http://lambdaway.free.fr/lambdaspeech/ but nobody cares. I don't speak of my own attempt, I'm not a professional coder, but I speak of the concept of a blocknote on the web coming with a true language, coherent, consistent, as a dwarf on the shoulders of the web browsers.

Could somebody explain me why?

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