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Monkey MindPong

neuralink.com

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Re: Monkey MindPong

#271

Post by CapCad »

nmca wrote: post #179
jm4 wrote: post #35

That was difficult to watch. While the technology is impressive, it is sickening to watch. The part where they can pair the phone via bluetooth made me want to vomit. It is obviously unnatural, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something about seeing that animal, oblivious to what's happening, and that implant with the ability to directly record thoughts and/or remote control. The whole thing doesn't sit well wi…

I'd encourage anyone worried about the ethics of animal experiments in research like this to come up with prioritisation metrics over a number of animal welfare cause areas as an exercise. Surely a small number of well-cared for animals in high-upside experiments are lower on the list than say, pigs for pork sausages, which have worse welfare, smaller upsides and are more cost efficient to campaign against.

Would you respond the same way to ethical concerns about the treatment of a small number of humans? If we could find larger groups of humans facing worse treatment (and surely we could), you might conclude that the smaller, less-poorly treated group is simply not worth discussing. But I'd argue in that case (as I would in this one) that the conclusion is mistaken.

Also, if I may ask, do you think we have to choose between caring about these individuals and caring about those in factory farms? I personally care about both (as well as plenty of other ethical issues, naturally). And I imagine other people feel the same. So your suggestion that we measure the two causes against each other is rather confusing.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#272

Post by dekhn »

antattack wrote: post #225
trombonechamp wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really basic. Here is a harder task from 2015 in monkeys with only 96 implanted electrodes (Utah array): https://youtu.be/lVFWIv5lupo?t=1673 Here is a video from 2014 of someone controlling a quadcopter with their mind with zero implanted electrodes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsraC04Mm8w

That's akin to saying that phones are basic since we already had desktops in the 1990s. Having 10x more electrodes that stay active for a long time, attached to self powered unit under skin with low latency wireless comm link is a major step forward.

I'm going to echo that this is not really as impressive as neuralink is saying. It's a good incremental improvement, but no breakthrough, and enough people have shown similar results. It's still quite far from achieving Musk's dream of uploading his brain into a robot body to fight the AI Singularity.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#273

Post by swordsmith »

aparsons wrote: post #96
swordsmith wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe it will be able to extract speech directly from the brain, which is orders of magnitude harder than controlling a joystick. Check out https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1119-1 And yes it is definitely orders of magnitude harder than controlling a joystick

Imagine the wonders it would do for interrogation /s

There is a big difference between decoding covert and even "imagined speech" and decoding "thoughts". In covert/imagined speech decoding, the user actually tries very hard to imagine the action of speaking and moving the corresponding vocal articulators, without actually doing it. This is similar to mental motor rehearsal done in sports training.

It works because there is direct correlation between the speech-motor cortex and how the vocal articulators (larynx, tongue, etc) move, and how that combine to produce speech.

Abstract "thoughts", on the other hand, are not so straight-forward. For one, there's no central location in the cortex where the concept of "car", for example, lives. The distributed representation of abstract thoughts within the brain makes it orders of magnitude more difficult than decoding speech for one specific individual. Then add orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude to generalize that to different people.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#274

Post by ZeikJT »

brians wrote: post #200
alcover wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the arm was in another room, he could feel around with it This uncanny sentence is giving me dystopian vertigo. I picture a mob of derelicts home-invading a 130 years-old tech boomer, fighting his remote-controlled spare limbs from room to room..

Heinlein’s Waldo might be a good thing to read, then. It’s the origin of the word “Waldo” in English.

It is a cool story, but I had no idea that remote control arms were called waldoes when I read it haha.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#275

Post by lolthishuman »

elil17 wrote: post #229
codeulike wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the neuralink innovations is having the electrodes installed very precisely via a robot surgeon, which supposedly allows them to make things easier/better/more precise - https://www.dezeen.com/2020/09/02/neuralink-elon-musk-brain-... Previous discussion of surgical robot https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24311152

That's really cool! I think one of the things that will hold them back is that there are still a lot of issues on even knowing where to place the electrodes - but as those issues are solved this will have such amazing potential!

It sounds like they know exactly where to put it based on their white paper. The problem is more materials engineering for longevity and economics.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#276

Post by lolthishuman »

jm4 wrote: post #35

That was difficult to watch. While the technology is impressive, it is sickening to watch. The part where they can pair the phone via bluetooth made me want to vomit. It is obviously unnatural, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something about seeing that animal, oblivious to what's happening, and that implant with the ability to directly record thoughts and/or remote control. The whole thing doesn't sit well wi…

It’s like social media and looking in the mirror!

Re: Monkey MindPong

#277

Post by lolthishuman »

KineticLensman wrote: post #172
the_dripper wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monkey probably won't be sad. I think it is entertained all day by the researchers. Playing its games, and drinking its delicious banana smoothie. As you say; Ignorance is bliss.

> The monkey probably won't be sad. I think it is entertained all day by the researchers. Playing its games, and drinking its delicious banana smoothie. Rhesus Macaques [0] have a lifespan of thirty years. Thirty years. Thirty years in a massively controlled environment, often sedentary, with limited opportunities to socialise with peers, and the simple pleasures of mutual grooming, lying in the sun etc. Lab animals…

I feel like an animal trapped on Earth zoo. It’s relative.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#278

Post by anonseeker »

KineticLensman wrote: post #172
the_dripper wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monkey probably won't be sad. I think it is entertained all day by the researchers. Playing its games, and drinking its delicious banana smoothie. As you say; Ignorance is bliss.

> The monkey probably won't be sad. I think it is entertained all day by the researchers. Playing its games, and drinking its delicious banana smoothie. Rhesus Macaques [0] have a lifespan of thirty years. Thirty years. Thirty years in a massively controlled environment, often sedentary, with limited opportunities to socialise with peers, and the simple pleasures of mutual grooming, lying in the sun etc. Lab animals…

> Thirty years in a massively controlled environment, often sedentary, with limited opportunities to socialise with peers, and the simple pleasures of mutual grooming, lying in the sun etc

Sounds a lot like work, to be honest.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#279

Post by haasn »

KineticLensman wrote: post #172
the_dripper wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monkey probably won't be sad. I think it is entertained all day by the researchers. Playing its games, and drinking its delicious banana smoothie. As you say; Ignorance is bliss.

> The monkey probably won't be sad. I think it is entertained all day by the researchers. Playing its games, and drinking its delicious banana smoothie. Rhesus Macaques [0] have a lifespan of thirty years. Thirty years. Thirty years in a massively controlled environment, often sedentary, with limited opportunities to socialise with peers, and the simple pleasures of mutual grooming, lying in the sun etc. Lab animals…

Sounds exactly like my experience trying to reintegrate into society.

Re: Monkey MindPong

#280

Post by ianai »

jonplackett wrote: post #182
PetitPrince wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC this is only experimental. The most reliable/interesting stuff are relying on ECoG (== put electrodes on the surface of the brain), and this means you have to perform a surgery. For human applications, most of the time the researchers are using patients that requires several brains surgery (e.g severe epilepsy) so that they can do some sort of fly-by experiments (several surgery are needed so that they can also…

Thanks - so it seems like it's actually the ease-of-implant part that Neuralink is really doing most interesting development on then, rather than the actual abilities it gives (so far at least)

Out of my range here, but I bet they have a deeper and wider base to draw on for the AI interface with the brain than most other organizations through their CEO.
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