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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#921

Post by killjoywashere »

kbenson wrote: post #876
tombert wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

> I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. They aren't scams, but they are only useful for a very narrow band of people in a very narrow band of circumstances. For the vast majority of people that want one of those loans, they are better off not getting it. It's entirely possible to get the loan and use it as intended, it's just the most the people that…

> you can likely thank the NY AG

If I recall, the military had a heavy hand in that. When the payday loan industry has cut into military readiness to the point the generals are talking to Congress about it, it's gone a bit too far.

edit (add ref): https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-109shrg50303/html/C...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#922

Post by nullc »

kbenson wrote: post #876
tombert wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

> I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. They aren't scams, but they are only useful for a very narrow band of people in a very narrow band of circumstances. For the vast majority of people that want one of those loans, they are better off not getting it. It's entirely possible to get the loan and use it as intended, it's just the most the people that…

> use it as intended

You mean that it's possible for some people to use it in a personally beneficial way.

That is true without any need to get into intent. I think it's unambiguous that the predatory application is the actual intended usage-- since their business model doesn't make sense without it, they have a massive default rate that only gets paid for with the windfall customers that stay on the treadmill for a long time.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#923

Post by kristopolous »

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

The worst thing that ever happened to unionizing was the AFL and the CIO.

The value compromising was great for short term growth but here's where we are now.

I've long thought the Samuel Gompers strategy was the right approach to coalition building. I've really started to question it probably just this week.

The short term gains are substantial but it bites back hard

I mean look at all these comments. Most people want the political power dynamics of syndicalism. But our compromised manifestations soured their dreams

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#924

Post by sjg007 »

curryst wrote: post #811
dcolkitt wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there are two problems with this theory. One unemployment is just as correlated with crimes of passion as it is crimes of opportunity. There’s no reason why a lack of job training should lead to rape. Two is that America’s high crime rates well preceded the advent of the modern welfare state. New York had much higher crime than London even in the 19th century at the height of Victorian social Darwinism and Dic…

> One unemployment is just as correlated with crimes of passion as it is crimes of opportunity. There’s no reason why a lack of job training should lead to rape. I think there is a clear reason: nihilism and depression. If you have resigned yourself to being unemployed and impoverished forever, what difference does it make whether you're in jail or not? It's the same reason we argue that jailing the homeless is point…

>nihilism and depression

No, that's not quite right. Someone who is depressed is not homicidal and highly unlikely to be violent to anyone but themselves. A nihilist is consumed in the thought that life is meaningless so they would not go around randomly hurting people by definition. A sociopath might but that's different.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#925

Post by rogerdickey »

fartcannon wrote: post #210
aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

Where does the money come from? What would the unskilled labor produce?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#926

Post by Ericson2314 »

macinjosh wrote: post #185
Ericson2314 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also dues are not compulsive because it's a "write to work" state. Insanity.

It is "right to work" and I do not see how it is insane to not _force_ people to join unions. In the US we take our freedoms of association seriously and forcing a citizen to associate with an organization they do not wish to associate with is tantamount to an unconstitutionality.

I didn't say right-to-work was insane, I said it was insane to complain about dues with right-to-work.

As to right-to-work itself, yes it does sound very odd on the face of it, and that's because the way unions have been institutionalized is quite odd. It's a very peculiar legal framework, divorced from the "situation on the ground". I recommend https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/uaw-academic-workers-coll... https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/08/eidlin-united-states-cana... for some background.

Now, one school of thought is "these are the tools we have, use them" another school of thought is "this is self-defeating weirdness", I am not sure. But it certainly isn't so clear cut that "of course right-to-work" is bad. Regardless of everything else, it was an anti-labor cudgel created in bad faith. Any solution that finds union compulsion icky but doesn't do something about the monopsony power of employers is not to be taken seriously.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#927

Post by genewitch »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #839
wolfsayswof wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and more: 1. universal disability benefits 2. usually min 20 days of vacation 3. pension 4. unemployment benefits incomparable to the US 5. unpaid overtime is usually taboo I live in the US (originally from EU) and I don't like people arguing the EU healthcare sucks without experiencing it themselves. No matter what your job/status is, you don't have to be scared to see any doctor - dentist, specialist, eye doct…

Well, specifics vary; like in the U.K. - good luck on finding an NHS dentist. Virtually everyone I knew in the U.K. had private dentistry despite it putatively being covered by the NHS.

in the US a "simple" no frills root canal and cap costs $600 for the drill and fill, and about $500 or $600 for the cap/crown/whatever milling. That includes anesthesia, post care prescription (not the medicine itself, just the scrip), x-rays, etc.

Usually you know when you need a root canal. It's usually because just getting a tooth filled is more expensive than getting it pulled, and most 'decent' dentists won't do pulls, because it eventually, allegedly, leads to all of your teeth shifting and falling out.

I've had dental insurance a couple of times, and while it was $20 to get a full cleaning and xray or whatever, they wanted me to get braces for $2500 out of pocket. I've never had another dentist i was paying for myself ever mention braces or anything else. from 20-38 i went to the dentist like 5 times, 3 cleanings when i had insurance, and 2 wisdom extraction. I'm well aware i lucked out in the dentistry lottery, most people i know have way more problems with their teeth, and i am unsure why, so i never judge people on their dental accoutrements.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#928

Post by Izikiel43 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

I'm from a country where unions are basically destroying the economy and progress.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#930

Post by wolfsayswof »

ekianjo wrote: post #767
quijoteuniv wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

> free healthcare & education. Not everywhere in Europe, and "free healthcare" is largely a myth. It's free until it's not. You need glasses? Out of your pocket, and it's super expensive. You need to stay in hospital? It's not going to be anywhere free. And they will kick you out as soon as they can as they are starving for beds and resources. Good luck with that. Sure, you can always go to the emergencies to get fre…

Basic glasses are usually at least partially covered, and whatever extra you need to pay for frames is very affordable unless you want a designer brand.

Nobody is ever going to kick you out of hospital. It's covered and the stay is usually longer than in the US where they kick you out right after you wake up.

The wait times are not worse than in the US, never had to wait more than 2-3 hrs in the hospital.

Neither you would ever receive a surprise bill from the hospital.

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