Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#841

Post by megablast » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #760

tw04 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/…

> Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. Healthcare in the UK is not as good as you may think it is. Unless you love waiting lines for life-threatening conditions.

I lived in the Uk after loving from oz. never had an issue. Never even saw any lines. This was in London and Newcastle.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#842

Post by Nimitz14 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #531

bradleyjg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side I wonder how many of the pro union voices I see on Facebook or elsewhere, especially millennials & gen z, have ever worked a union job and seen what a seniority system or non-at-will employment actually looks like in practice. Of the people I know that have direct experience with US unions, even those that ultimately come down on the side of supporting them have lots of stories to illustrate the wart…

I've seen what non at-will employment leads to in Europe, and it's pretty good.

Since we're trading anecdotes: I'm European and I disagree.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#843

Post by seibelj » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #672

bradleyjg wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard similar things from others (though less so in Southern Europe). However, I don’t think you get there from here by just expanding existing US unions. It would take a bigger culture shift.

You don't need unions for that, just legislation. In Ireland, you are essentially at-will for the first six months of any role, and after that you are "permanent". This essentially means that there needs to be a process to fire you. You need to supply at least one verbal warning on stated grounds (backed up as a written), then another one and then you can fire someone. It works reasonably well (not always, obviously)…

US companies fear lawsuits and firing employees includes a lot of data to back it up, from what I’ve observed. There are so many protected classes and reasons why firing is illegal, and people are so litigious, that months of documentation, warnings, improvement plan, etc. is required to fire someone with HR’s approval. And even then usually you give some severance to ensure lawsuit isn’t filed.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#844

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #720

wutbrodo wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

Your arguments are entirely theoretical while ignoring the fact that payday loan businesses are regularly shut down for fraud. Just because debt as a concept isn't flawed doesn't mean the people selling debt are moral. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Tucker_(businessman) Likewise, just because I post one extreme example of payday loan businesses being a fraud doesn't invalidate the entire industry. As a whole tho…

> Your arguments are entirely theoretical while ignoring the fact that payday loan businesses are regularly shut down for fraud

I alluded to empirical evidence of their usefulness. Here's a study from the FDIC[1]. It's dated, but there are structural conclusions about the way payday loans work and why their rates are so high.

I don't see the relevance of specific payday lenders being shut down for fraud. Individual cases of fraud should be cracked down upon, and its widespread prevalence in an industry suggests that regulation is potentially a good idea. But neither of these automatically negate the usefulness of a service, just as the bad behavior of the banking industry doesn't make a bank account useless.

> Likewise, just because I post one extreme example of payday loan businesses being a fraud doesn't invalidate the entire industry.

Yes, this is my point. The comment I responded to and that I quoted from said:

> I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams

The point of my comment is that they can be useful, and the GP's shame at considering an option he "knew" was a scam is unwarranted and down to midwit elites who are quick to fuck the poor over in the name of paternalistic, performative virtue, but never bother to understand them as agents making decisions that are sometimes unintuitively rational.

[1] https://www.fdic.gov/bank/analytical/cfr/2005/wp2005/2005-09...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#845

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

I work at an institution that has a strong union presence (education).

It is absolutely a cancer of the place. Granted, I think that probably in a lot of places that have unions they can easily become a scapegoat to all of the organization's problems, but some of the ones that I deal with on a daily basis are really hard to pin on anything else.

In an idealized world, there would be infinite competition both on the demand and supply side of labor. The argument for unions, at least, is that in the real world the balance tips in favor of the demand side, and I'm sure in many organizations this makes a ton of sense. But at a place like a small learning organization where I work at, it just ensures that nothing ever happens. You have a fantastic faculty member that you want to compensate above and beyond market rate because they deserve it? Union will make that an issue. You want to fire a severe under-performer? Union will make that an issue. You are a non-union manager who has energy and wants to improve things? This sort of stuff will destroy your morale. Over time, the really good people who want to be recognized for their work individually leave, the people who care and want to actively promote change ALSO leave, and what you are left with is an assorted collection of folks going through the motions and heavily invested in not rocking the boat out in any direction. It sucks.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#846

Post by hoophoop » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #664

FearlessNebula wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

> I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally.

No: being really broke can cause a lot of anxiety that can lead to irrational behavior.

But often a person has to choose between homelessness and crime and picks the latter as a rational choice, given the alternative.

So please don't assume poor = "crazy" = criminal, it's a bit unkind.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#847

Post by selestify » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

Diederich wrote: post #732

squidlogic wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US native I’ve never had someone threaten to shoot me or show me they were armed to intimidate me. I’m not exactly living a sheltered life either. I have a few questions, sorry if this sounds like a lot I’m just really curious. What city are you in where this happens? What are you doing to provoke this kind of behavior? Why haven’t you moved away to somewhere safer?

I grew up in south-central Los Angeles in the 1970s and 1980s and I witnessed several incidents of gun violence, one of which was fatal, and I was personally fired at on two different occasions. These were all gang related, random acts of violence, though neither myself nor anybody I happened to be near at the time was in a gang. > What are you doing to provoke this kind of behavior? Standing on the sidewalk, hanging…

That's nuts, thanks for sharing.

Would you happen to know why gangs would bother doing random acts of violence against teenagers standing on the sidewalk? I'd heard that the Italian mafia at least likes to keep themselves out of the public eye, interesting that other gangs don't.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#848

Post by blablabla123 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #246

fartcannon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

You can earn 15 €/h (18 $) on average for cleaning in Munich. Minimum wage is at 9.50 €/h (11.30 $) though in Germany.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#849

Post by gambiting » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #793

wutbrodo wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

Spoken like someone who has never lived paycheck to paycheck and been caught in a debt spiral. You are correct, not having access to credit is a bad thing. But having access to predatory credit is a WORSE thing. There's a reason we outlawed indentured slavery and "company scrip", and payday loans are a half a step up from that situation.

The reason why payday loans are allowed is that just like with drugs - outlawing them doesn't mean people don't seek them out. It's better to have access to a legal and well regulated payday lender business, rather than letting people borrow money from the "pay us back or else" kind. And they absolutely will, desperate people will seek out desperate solutions.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#850

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #793

wutbrodo wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

Spoken like someone who has never lived paycheck to paycheck and been caught in a debt spiral. You are correct, not having access to credit is a bad thing. But having access to predatory credit is a WORSE thing. There's a reason we outlawed indentured slavery and "company scrip", and payday loans are a half a step up from that situation.

> Spoken like someone who has never lived paycheck to paycheck and been caught in a debt spiral.

Respectfully, go fuck yourself, you know nothing about me. You don't even seem to know what _you're_ talking about: poverty spirals don't disappear when you remove access to credit. I'm all for regulating payday lenders: the industry can be riven with fraud and rate regulation on the margins can smooth out the tradeoff between expanded credit access and debt traps. But my comment was in response to a comment claiming that they're always scams; spend five minutes educating yourself and you'll find plenty of examples of people who've actually bothered to look at the lives of people on the demand side of payday loans, like this New Yorker journalists[1].

It takes a lot of privilege and callous disregard for the poor to arrive at the idiocy of claiming that it's always a _good_ thing to remove a bad option from someone with only bad options.

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/what-good-are-pa...