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Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

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Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#151
IMO, the important question isn't "why did Hypercard die," but rather, "why hasn't anyone rebuilt it, or built something better?"

The author's answer to this question is totally wrong.

> Either way, expect no HyperCard (or work-alikes) from Apple. But how about other vendors? What about open-source projects? Nothing there, either. Oh, there is no shortage of attempts. And all of them are failures for the same reason: they insist on being more capable, more complexity-laden than HyperCard. And thus, none of them can readily substitute for it.

Really? Nobody ever had the intelligence and discipline to design a simple GUI builder in the history of computing since Hypercard?

No, the answer is that there are numerous simple GUI builders, including GUI builders for the web. But none of them are popular, due to the sweet spot of supply and demand that Hypercard hit.

When Hypercard launched, it came with every Mac, it was free, and there was nothing else like it available on the Mac. On the Mac, the alternative to Hypercard was to layout UI widgets in code, with no GUI builder at all, or eventually to pay $$$ for a professional-grade IDE like CodeWarrior. As an entry-level user with no budget, if you wanted a GUI builder for the Mac, you got Hypercard, or nothing. This created a community of Hypercard enthusiasts.

Furthermore, when Hypercard launched, Macs had a standard screen resolution. Every Mac sold had a screen resolution of 512x342 pixels, so you could know for sure how your cards would look on any Mac. Supporting resizable GUIs is one of the hardest things to do in any GUI builder. (How should the buttons layout when the screen gets very small, like a phone? Or very wide, like a 16:9 monitor?) Today, Xcode uses a sophisticated constraint solver / theorem prover to allow developers to build resizable UIs in a GUI; it works pretty well, I think, but it's never going to be as easy to learn as "drag the button onto the screen and it's going to look exactly like that everywhere."

The last issue is the real killer for modern Hypercard wannabes: it's a small step from a web GUI builder to raw HTML/CSS. You don't have to pay big bucks to have access to professional-grade HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Sure, they're not that easy to learn, but you can teach a kid to write interactive web pages, no problem.

As a result, the demand for a simple GUI builder is lower than it was for Hypercard, and even when you do capture a user, they tend to outgrow your product, and there are a zillion competitors, so none of them can build a community with real traction.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#152
Hypercard was a work of genius. A software masterpiece. It was quite easy to learn. It enabled beginners as well as thousands of people without technical education (e.g. most educators) by providing the versatility needed to fairly simply create thousands of responsive, easily-extensible, practical apps. And they did.

IMO, that's why it had to die ... and why it was not handed to its many user groups. Noble attempts to recreate its facility failed for lack of its ubiquity. One of the saddest stories in personal computing.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#153
post #38

Obviously not exactly the same, but a lot of the magic here is something I felt with Macromedia Flash MX back in the day. I had been (at the time) unsuccessful getting a C++ with OpenGL project working, but when I had my pirated copy of Flash, I was very quickly able to make interactive stuff. I never made anything even close to "commercial-ready", but I had a lot of fun doing it. It felt like within a day or two, yo…

There is a very active open-source project called Ruffle[1] which aims to reimplement Flash Player to play the already existing Flash content. It runs in the browser via WASM as well as a standalone native app on all three desktop OSes. It doesn't support AS3 yet. But as far as I can tell, there's no one trying to recreate Flash the authoring program. Which is a big shame IMO. We need something that enables creativit…

Ruffle is pretty sweet, it resurrected Homestar Runner so I legally have to love it.

As I said, I do think GameMaker is a reasonable enough substitute for stuff. While I find having to write shaders a bit irritating, you don't have to do it very often, and you can get up and running in a fairly short amount of time, and it's HTML5 exporter works pretty much perfectly from what I've played with. Is it as easy as Flash? No, but it's still a pretty low barrier-to-entry for people, I think I could probably teach a kid how to use it and they'd pick up the basics.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touch on something that for me is the real issue: there is only one level of complexity today: maximum. Building a blog, a news website, a niche web app, or the new Facebook, it nearly doesn't matter, you must use the latest state of art tools. We have completely lost all the intermediate levels between beginner and professional. Sometimes it's justified as an unfortunate effect of the internet for sites and apps…

Well there's always PICO-8. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

Pico-8 is a lot of fun, I made a ray-casting FPS thing in there a few years ago.

That said, Pico-8 is (purposefully) limited pretty substantially. You can only have like 32kb of RAM, you are really limited in your sprite size, and I think the built-in editor is kind of annoying.

Flash was fun because it was super easy to get into, but it kind of felt like a "big kid" programming environment. While I know the performance wasn't great, outside of that I never felt limited by Flash.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#155
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that TFA said it well, if brusquely: > And if you think that XCode, Python, Processing, or the shit soup of HTML/Javascript/CSS are any kind of substitute for HyperCard, then read this post again. The thing that made HyperCard great was that it wasn't very capable. Which made it approachable.

> Which made it approachable. And still WWW had orders of magnitude more users almost immediately. Hypercard is only easier to learn than "regular" programming languages if you're English speaker.

I think that that point actually supports the gist of the argument.

In 1995, putting together a website was easier than using Hypercard. And so people flocked to it. Even people who were already somewhat familiar with Hypercard. Even though, at the time, Hypercard was largely more powerful. Some of that was because the Web made it so much easier to share. But I don't think that's the whole story.

Fast forward 25 years, and the Web has become much more powerful, but the number of people making websites recreationally who don't also get paid to write software seems to have dropped precipitously.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#156

This is from 2011 and has been posted 6 or 7 times over the years. It has one interesting point: complexity is our industry’s addiction and downfall, but blames the wrong person. it’s not Steve Jobs’ fault that customers want what they want. The dream that we’d all be in a web based on HyperCard is no different from other the Squeak Smalltalk folks or LOGO fans etc. Elegant, beautiful interactive environments to help…

Squeak was started at Apple. But when Steve Jobs came back to Apple and decided to kill research, they had to move elsewhere. They were able to convince Apple to release Squeak as open source (their very first attempt to do so) so they wouldn't have to start over at their new home.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point. Also, the environment that feels most like an environment for “not really programmers but sort of if I need to” is the Jupyter Notebook ecosystem which evolved out of IPython. It’s like a spreadsheet for telling a narrative.

These days, Jupyter Notebook is my brain. Other than for the hidden state problem, it's the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, my favorite way of sharing "software" is in this form.

Jupyter notebooks are great but they don't have the physical immediacy of HC. Maybe we should build that in, there are some physical widgets that can be put on the notebook to interact with the user code, so the mechanism is there.

On the Amiga we had a system called CanDo that was very similar to Hypercard in how it enabled end users to make multimedia applications. The interview below has some excellent insight into CanDo and the relationship it had with HyperCard.

http://www.rcfinch.com/Amiga/INOVAtronicsInterview.pdf

And I was reminded of these other application building tools, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_programming_languages#Ap... the 3d construction kit kind of occupied the same place as minecraft for a lot of kids in the 90s.

*edit, his is fascinating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOsPKjbMvxY

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there's always PICO-8. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

Pico-8 is a lot of fun, I made a ray-casting FPS thing in there a few years ago. That said, Pico-8 is (purposefully) limited pretty substantially. You can only have like 32kb of RAM, you are really limited in your sprite size, and I think the built-in editor is kind of annoying. Flash was fun because it was super easy to get into, but it kind of felt like a "big kid" programming environment. While I know the performa…

PICO-8 has 2 MB of Lua RAM (every Lua variable is 64 bits minimum so that's not a huge lot to play with). If the limitations feel too restricting, there's always TIC-80.

https://tic80.com/

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#159

The walled garden rant is anachronistic. HyperCard died because Apple stopped major work it. Circa 1987! There was no HyperCard team to put out a new version when Jobs returned in 1997, and a dying Apple couldn’t justify building one from scratch. It’s that simple. (Yes, there were post-1987 updates, none of which added fundamental critical features like color support. Which was introduced to the Mac lineup with the…

This was my thinking as well.

But actually, looking at Wikipedia, it appears there was work on a Hypercard 3.0, which added a bunch of features and turned Hypercard stacks into a special kind of Quicktime movie. It was demoed as alpha quality and never finished... which sounds pretty much exactly like nearly all other Apple products at the time! Smart people doing cool stuff with little direction under bad management, unable to get the cool stuff out the door. And arguably by the return of Jobs, the ship had sailed. There was no way Hypercard was going to take over the world after the introduction of Windows 95 and WWW, that was clear to anyone. I wish it had, though.

Re: Why Hypercard had to die (2011)

#160

If Hypercard were so wonderful, then someone else would have made something similar and it would have went on to world domination. Instead, all we're left with are occasional posts on Hacker News about how wonderful Hypercard was, some adoring comments about the wonder of Hypercard, and some fan websites. Then it falls back into obscurity - or, possibly, there are indeed Hypercard clones available, but they don't ins…

LiveCode is still out there. I use it every day for a half-dozen home applications.
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