Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#601

Post by spectramax » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

whoknew1122 wrote: post #440

bhupy wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

You're conflating FAFSA and Pell Grants. FAFSA is an application for student aid. Pell Grants are the federal government grants given to low-income students. The lifetime limit for Pell Grants is $6,3465. As a low-income student, you may also be eligible for Stafford loans, which are federal subsidized loans. Subsidized meaning that the government pays for any interest accrued while you're a part time student, in you…

I went to college (University of Georgia) with Pell Grants for free. 100% free including lodging and dining, both Bachelors + Masters in Physics. My parents were unemployed at the time and we interviewed at the deans office for the grant, I clearly remember when my father broke down in tears. I had to borrow friend's books, use the library scanner to create PDFs of the pages that were important - couldn't afford textbooks.

I am eternally grateful for the FAFSA/Pell Grant program. Without it, I wouldn't be conducting fundamental science and getting paid 6 figures.

I know this is N=1 sample size, just wanted to put it out there.

I think college should be free only for people that cannot afford it. Rich kids should pay.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#602

Post by kethinov » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #505

psychometry wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need better education so that people stop voting against their own self-interest, in union elections and generally.

Or in other words, we need to indoctrinate people so that they vote the way I think they should.

I prefer indoctrination that improves people's wages and working conditions as opposed to the present anti-union indoctrination that only serves to empower bosses at workers' expense.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#603

Post by busterarm » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

slantedview wrote: post #553

busterarm wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't exactly take Robert Reich's word for it...It's not so clear at all. There's plenty of other variables to consider here and he just graphed two of them. Corporate taxes were much higher. Also it looks like share of income going to the top 10% hasn't really changed much at all in the last 100 years. 40% +/- 10%. That needle hasn't moved very far.

Not his graph. It comes from an EPI report: https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-collective-ba...

It's still just cherry picking 2 variables to graph together that may or may not be related.

Correlation != Causation.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#604

Post by Shivetya » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

I replied to another poster but let me double down the fun.

Well first off, especially in low wage jobs, there is little they do for you and it can cost nearly two hours of your pay per month for the benefit. You get this wonderful set of rules which spells out what your employer can and cannot do but it also limits you as well. I got first hand experience in a union shop from late 1980s to early 1990s. My reward was seeing our rep once a quarter if we were lucky in her Mercedes which cost more than we made.

However for every complaint about people being anti union and listing off "Bunch of facts" you never see those same people list their facts that support a pro union stance. Most of the time its little more than what people already have with some variation of something they won't even get when unionized.

The simple fact is, in the US they are more political than worker oriented. They feed a ridiculous amount of dues and even state funds into political coffer so they come replete with lots of wonderful political supporters and press who love to lay the claim that workers will be better for representation. The benefactors are political appointees, elected officials, and union leadership. The workers are mostly pawns.

What I read about European unions would be very nice to see in the states but what I experienced, family members have experienced, is not this fantasy that some people have of what its like here.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#605

Post by saas_sam » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

slantedview wrote: post #487

saas_sam wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you worked in a large unionized organization? I've worked in both. Unions are worse.

I guess it depends what outcome you want, higher income inequality or not. I happen to think higher income inequality that directly follows from the lack of unions is a bad thing: https://files.epi.org/charts/img/172988-21725.png https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-collective-ba...

The ultimate solution to wealth inequality is to destroy all wealth. Bring it to $0. Everyone's equal. Is that a win? Or is there perhaps more to the story worth considering than inequality? Overall wealth, number of jobs, ability to get hired and promoted...? If you have charts on those things I'd be interested.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#606

Post by throwawayboise » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #489

ianbutler wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

>Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? >Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I jus…

> Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare?

I think it can be. Depends on the details but an HSA comes with a high-deductible plan. This is normally ideal for young people, who are generally healthy and only need insurance for rare catastrophic illness or serious accidents. Normal, routine care (checkups, immunizations, etc.) can be budgeted and paid out of the HSA tax-free. I don't see why that stuff should be "free" for most people, any more than groceries or utilities or housing should be.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#607

Post by soledades » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

FearlessNebula wrote: post #590

Diederich wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you're not kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer,_Alabama#Economy "Crime increased following the rise in unemployment and social disruption from the decline of manufacturing industries in the area. As of 2019 Bessemer ranks first in terms of violent crimes for US cities with 25,000 or more people." Population has fallen from its peak in 1970 of 33k to 26k today. Thanks for the reference. EDIT: Also hom…

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

Unemployment -> desperation -> crime

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#608

Post by _huayra_ » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #506

colejohnson66 wrote: post #263

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The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem. Sure, some people can work their way out of a rut that their parents were in, but the majority can’t.

The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem. This is both right and wrong. Asian immigrants are notorious for arriving on foreign shores, penniless, then winding up owning businesses and sending their kids to top tier schools. The problem isn't being born into not having money and things. The problem is being born into an environment that sets chi…

Most people who are immigrants have almost by definition a better-than-average work ethic. You can see this if you know a bunch of people from country X when you live in country Y (where Y is usually a country "better off" than X), and then you go visit country X. You'll see that the "expats from X" you see while living in Y may be of a higher caliber (e.g. entrepreneurial, in your example), the people who did not expatriate do not often contain the same values.

As someone who lived in the US for a long time and now lives in Europe, I can tell you that all of the Americans I've met over here (who are not vacationing) are incredibly driven and entrepreneurial. They do not at all reflect the average American back in the US (e.g. I don't know a single Trump supporter over here; the Democrats Abroad caucus typically goes far more liberal than any state, supporting Bernie Sanders in 2016 by a very wide margin).

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#609

Post by CameronNemo » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

zndr wrote: post #212

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective bargaining lets the employees push back against issues that would otherwise risk their career. For example, an individual speaking up against horrible working conditions, metric-focused managers, and ignorance of unsafe practices would risk getting fired, so the issues would persist. A union would have the leverage required to push back against such issues.

While you're correct, Amazon is so large that this single center being nuked from their org chart would have been an inconvenience. I think it's very easy for us to say "this would help you" but the reality is, it might have drawn a line in the sand, at the cost of every single employee's job.

This is exactly why the vote was probably the most pragmatic decision. A vote for unionization would have been brave and symbolic. But why should blue collar people in Alabama have to sabotage their livelihoods to make a point?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#610

Post by stale2002 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #454

toby wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guilds are a little different from unions in practice. They set minimum standards but there's no group negotiation based on seniority or anything like that. Studios are free to pay some hot rising star 100x as much as the guy who has been a character actor for 30 years as long as he's making the minimum and getting his breaks and meals and stuff. It's also a challenge to get into a guild, SAG has minimum requirements…

Why are you making his argument for him? He pointed out that not all unions are the doom and gloom version where you can't carry lightbulbs (seriously people, don't ever use that example, it's right out of the anti-union video, obvious tell) and good people can't get promotions because of blah blah blah. You then responded by saying it doesn't count because it's different. Yeah, that's the point. A "union" isn't a th…

The contract provisions described regarding these high end unions are doom and gloom though.

Contract provisions that screw over newcomers, and set up additional barriers to entry are not good.

I do not want the tech industry to discriminate against new comers, or developers who don't have a CS degree, or H1Bs more than it is already doing so.

And that is what those kinds of unions do to the industry. They setup barriers to entry to target these groups.