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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#511

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

> So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?

From speaking with family members who work or worked for Unions.

From a management perspective it is untenable to not be able to hire who you want (because you must offer the job to any "qualified" union employee before you can hire externally), not be able to fire who you want (because you must meet arbitrary requirements set by the union).

From an employee perspective I've seen situations where they want specific or custom arrangements with their boss and their boss would like to give them but they violate union rules so they are either forced to work around it (and face repercussions if they are found out) or refuse to accommodate situations that both the manager and the employee agree upon.

I will also say that I find the anti-anti-union rhetoric very distasteful. I fundamentally agree that employees have the right to discuss their desire to join or form a union but I think that companies have the fundamental right to advocate their position as well. Virtually all of this get's called out as "anti-union" propaganda and I find that very distasteful and disingenuous. Most of the "propaganda" videos I've seen I found to be actually quite reasonable arguments, while most of the anti-anti commentary I find to be disingenuous appeals to emotion.

There are also many industries where unions are massively corrupt. I know nothing about the union here so I won't speak about it, but I do have personal experience with this.

Finally, I will also say that my opinion of unions skews heavily against larger and more diverse ones. Had this been Amazon Warehouse workers choosing to form their own union vs join an existing union, I feel that would have been more successful by virtue of being smaller in scope and more targeted.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think this is due to the bad reputation unions have. Digging a two mile tunnel eats half of the state budget? Police refuses to wear body cams? Schools are slow to reopen after covid? Rightly or not, in many people's minds unions are to blame.

> Schools are slow to reopen after covid? Are you talking hypotheticals? Because that hasn't happened, and couldn't have happened since COVID isn't "over" anywhere in the US.

It's happened more at the elementary school level.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#513
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a public teacher for 9 years, 2 years in a union and 7 years in a right to work state. The union experience was better as an employee. I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. The one thing you gain going to a private school is freedom to do as you want, an…

> I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. I don't know where you lived, but this is the opposite of the situation in most places. Private schools attract people who will pay private school tuition because they offer higher standards. In my limited experience wit…

They have higher standards for decorum and appearance, but not higher academic standards. One of the advantages of private schools is that they are essentially exempt from standards. Their students are generally not required to take standardized tests, and the schools generally are not required to follow prescribed curricula. I agree that private schools generally have a higher standard of cleanliness and facility upkeep. And although the families have to pay more for students to attend compared to (free) public schools, teachers as a broad class are paid less, not more, at private schools. There are numerous reasons for this. For one, a prospective employee has even less leverage than they do when seeking employment at a public school.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#514
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a public teacher for 9 years, 2 years in a union and 7 years in a right to work state. The union experience was better as an employee. I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. The one thing you gain going to a private school is freedom to do as you want, an…

> I find it hard to believe great teachers would go to private schools in large numbers as a result of being in a union, private schools generally have lower pay, lower benefits, and lower standards. I don't know where you lived, but this is the opposite of the situation in most places. Private schools attract people who will pay private school tuition because they offer higher standards. In my limited experience wit…

In 2011-2012, the average pay for a full-time public school teacher was $56,410. For a private school teacher, it was $40,200.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.10.a...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#515
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/…

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

the UK healthcare system isn't so great either. It's good enough for a safety net (mostly... the wait times are horrendous for non-emergency work, and I know a guy whose collarbone pokes out at a right angle because his doctor wouldn't fix the break), but if you have a chronic condition that isn't one of the handful of really common ones that all doctors know about (like IBS) then you're mostly on your own unless you go private.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#516
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yang had a nice plan for that :(

And no sustainable way to fund it.

Are you just saying that or did you look at his proposed plan? It included VAT and other ways to make it sustainable.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thinking is that it ignores being born into the problem. Sure, some people can work their way out of a rut that their parents were in, but the majority can’t.

Not just that, but if we rank everyone, some people will inevitably be worse than others. Should those at the bottom be condemned to poverty?

Should those at the bottom be condemned to poverty?

The lesson of the GINI coefficient and the psychology of relative wealth, is that absolute, material well being isn't the issue. The issue is whether people think the cards are so stacked against them, that they will never win.

So the answer is no. We know that condemning those at the bottom will result in civil unrest. Everyone needs to live in dignity, or there will be violence. Psychology has pretty much determined this to be a fact of human nature.

However, this doesn't mean we should have equity. People should be rewarded, and people should also have something to strive for. It's the dignity of the common person which has been eroded over time.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every non-unionized place I've worked suffers from many of the same problems. These are real problems, but don't outweigh the benefit of unions to people's material well being.

Have you worked in a large unionized organization? I've worked in both. Unions are worse.

My spouse (medicine) and several of my peers (journalism) have and they would disagree. Spouse has experienced both sides of the coin, and has seen better benefits and better pay in the unionized workplace than the non-unionized one. Very much the same story for my journo peers, but in their case, they unionized the workplace so the only variable that changed to improve their lifestyle was the introduction of a union -- not a change of location or management that a bad-faith FANG-worshipper would use to muddy the comparison.

I'm sure those aren't valid examples anyway, as the only unions that matter in discussions on this hellsite are the ones that also exist in Randian works of fiction.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all Which work environments are merit based? Which employers fire bad performers?

I've found all the companies I worked at rewarded merit and fired bad performers. Of course the systems were imperfect but on average both happened.

I find it really surprising that you think this happened at all companies you've worked at. In my experience, the difference between good and bad companies was exactly how much they recognised merit and fired bad performers.

Note that "bad performance" is very team specific, if I'm shoved into a spaghetti DS code base and told to not write tests or refactor, then I will definitely end up as a poor performer.

And unfortunately, people being people, lots of managers/leads make decisions based on unexamined emotional states, which tends not to lead to rewarding merit.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#520

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

Wow, you're not kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer,_Alabama#Economy "Crime increased following the rise in unemployment and social disruption from the decline of manufacturing industries in the area. As of 2019 Bessemer ranks first in terms of violent crimes for US cities with 25,000 or more people." Population has fallen from its peak in 1970 of 33k to 26k today. Thanks for the reference. EDIT: Also hom…

> Also home to the world's oldest chicken, who lived 16 years

frowns in Colorado

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken

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