Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#321

Post by tptacek » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

Here's an interesting and surprising analysis from a labor organizer and writer (you'll need to follow the back-and-forth of the comments a bit):

https://twitter.com/yeselson/status/1380363511709196288

The short version is: while the Bessemer campaign was a good thing, the vote (according to this person --- everything I'm writing here is according to Yeselson and subject to errors in my understanding) was not. To wit: if a skilled organizer effort isn't sure it's going to win, they pull the vote, reorganize, and try again when they're sure they will.

There's further evidence in the threads that nuts-and-bolts organizing, "101 stuff" to use the term I got from labor organizing blogs following up on this, wasn't done; that in fact the worker opponents to unionization were only weakly opposed, and under-educated.

Another fun Google search that I found from this thread: [union "hot shop"].

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#322

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

macinjosh wrote: post #195

rorykoehler wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaslit to death

Funny how some resort to calling workers gullible when they don't vote the way they're supposed to. You're saying these people have no agency and no understanding of their own situation? How patronizing! I thought accepting the will of the people is the whole goal of democracy?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#323

Post by bhupy » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

quijoteuniv wrote: post #293

flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA).

And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant.

K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for anyone that continues to make minimum wage throughout their career.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#324

Post by wernercd » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

> Where do you get your information from

History and reality. Look at union run cities like Chicago and union run industries like the auto-industry that got demolished by foreign companies.

Personally, I think unions have their places... but in 99% of cases these days? The bureaucracy, red tape, added expenses and other assorted BS are more net negative than the few positives that unions offer.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#325

Post by KingOfCoders » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

2bitencryption wrote: post #280

aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

This may be a bit of an ignorant question, but... Are "dying cities/slums" a purely American phenomenon, in terms of rich first-world countries? Is there similarly a "rust belt" in Germany, of cities that had an economic collapse after manufacturing died out? Are there rich European countries with flailing cities that devolve into crime and poverty? Does Europe have its own Bessemers, Detroits? (though I do hear Detr…

In the former "rust belt" of Germany unemployement rate is higher (~12%) compared to the rest of Germany (~6%). And although we had social reforms in the 2000s cutting unemployment benefits - today with unemployment benefits, "free" health care and social security payments you can live from (though should be higher), areas with higher unemployment are not comparable to the US.

(Also German carmakers have - at least until now - done much better than Detroit for a variety of reasons).

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#326

Post by 8bithero » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Maybe a controversial or skewed observation - But as a European looking (from outside) into the US, it looks like everyone has the impression that they're all millionaires who just haven't made it yet. They don't seem to want to disrupt the status quo, even if it benefits them, incase they're next inline to make it big :/

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#327

Post by objclxt » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #197

redkoala wrote: post #14

Unions don’t always contribute to a better outcome for their workers, and it looks like working conditions wasn’t a strong enough driver for the majority of the workers. It’s hard to motivate a vote for unions when Amazon pays double the federal minimum wage.

A lot of unions ended up being just another means for the mafia to steal from the poor, skimming off the top of pensions funds and the like. Similar corruption exists today. It is inevitable.

> Similar corruption exists today. It is inevitable.

OK, so if it's inevitably why hasn't this happened to the creative unions in Hollywood like SAG, WGA, the DGA, and the PGA?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#328

Post by upbeat_general » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

ivvve wrote: post #178

snurfer wrote: post #65

The Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union hasn't always worked out for those workplaces that have brought them in.* In this instance, maybe unions aren't the solution to the "problem" or maybe the problem doesn't really exist? * https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...

You gotta be kidding me... this "Centre for Union Facts" is a 501(c) doesn't disclose it's donors. I'd bet dollars to donuts it's funded by businesses like Amazon and Walmart to do in their employees who want to collectively bargain. Probably a terribly biased source, for anyone who wants the real facts about unions.

Correct. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Union_Facts

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#329

Post by marcinzm » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

duckfang wrote: post #254

parliament32 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

You're making union shops and the people who support them sound so depressing and indifferent to their jobs and careers that I really don't want to be anywhere near either.

>In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like.

Personally I'll take risk of getting fired over having to spend 8 hours a day dealing with utter idiots. Not spending 8 hours a day miserable is worth a lot to me personally.

>And, it's a common and well understood in the tech field that if you want better pay, you job hop.

Exactly, you have the option and path for getting a better pay through your own efforts. In a union industry you don't. New job will pay the same as the old one based on union rules.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#330

Post by nathanappere » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

fearling wrote: post #302

quijoteuniv wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

Education is free up til college in the US and the healthcare for Amazon warehouse workers is the same as for their engineers and Jeff Bezos.

You mean costs the same and as a result is entirely a function of how well you're paid in order to be able to afford better coverage?