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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#301

Post by kethinov »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #264
kethinov wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false dichotomy. The solution to a badly run union is to run it better, not dissolve it and surrender all your power to your boss, just as the solution to a badly run republic is to elect better leaders, not abandon democracy and go back to the bad old days of monarchy. Unions are workplace democracy. Opposing them is by definition supporting workplace monarchy.

This is extremely ideological to the point of simply being untrue. The best outcome for everyone is no union and a supportive employer that gives you a fair deal so you don’t want one. Unions are a huge tradeoff and better as a last resort.

"The best outcome is no democracy and a benevolent king that gives you a fair deal so you don't want elections. Democracy has huge tradeoffs and is better only as a last resort."

You're right. It's ideological. And you're on the wrong side of it.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#302

Post by fearling »

quijoteuniv wrote: post #293
flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

While that might be right,You are not taking into account that in Europe you get free healthcare & education.

Education is free up til college in the US and the healthcare for Amazon warehouse workers is the same as for their engineers and Jeff Bezos.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#303

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

zndr wrote: post #212
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective bargaining lets the employees push back against issues that would otherwise risk their career. For example, an individual speaking up against horrible working conditions, metric-focused managers, and ignorance of unsafe practices would risk getting fired, so the issues would persist. A union would have the leverage required to push back against such issues.

While you're correct, Amazon is so large that this single center being nuked from their org chart would have been an inconvenience. I think it's very easy for us to say "this would help you" but the reality is, it might have drawn a line in the sand, at the cost of every single employee's job.

They're already facing anticompetitive scrutiny. Retaliation would have tipped the political scales.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#304

Post by selimthegrim »

vb6sp6 wrote: post #189
zarkov99 wrote: post #88

Good. I have lived in 3 continents and 4 different countries and I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent, ultimately to the ruin of all involved. I hear Germany cracked the code on that one, but in the US unions seem to be pretty much like everywhere.

I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federa…

VW TN was offered a works council deal and they still voted it down.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#305

Post by tomc1985 »

ActorNightly wrote: post #283
fartcannon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

USA needs better education so that people understand economics and labor markets, so they wont calling paid positions indentured servitude.

I imagine GP is being facetious

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#306

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

2bitencryption wrote: post #280
aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

This may be a bit of an ignorant question, but... Are "dying cities/slums" a purely American phenomenon, in terms of rich first-world countries? Is there similarly a "rust belt" in Germany, of cities that had an economic collapse after manufacturing died out? Are there rich European countries with flailing cities that devolve into crime and poverty? Does Europe have its own Bessemers, Detroits? (though I do hear Detr…

Chinese cities in the northeast Yellow Sea area (like Dalian) were historically industrial centers, but are now somewhat of a Chinese rust belt while the industrial gravity has moved south (ex: Shenzhen, Chongqing).

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#307

Post by shuntress »

marcinzm wrote: post #255
Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate the union is bad for both good teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers leave for private schools and other public systems. The union rewarded the incompetent and did little for rampant administrator abuse.

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate that the union is good for both teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers stay in public schools. The union rewarded the competent and pushed back against administrator abuse.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#308

Post by ayende »

shuntress wrote: post #282
exabrial wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a well run union in the USA where they successfully compete against union union workers, their industry isn't being shipped overseas, and workers can optionally participate without having wages garnished.

The screen actors guild

You mean, the one were it is actually easy to fire people?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#309

Post by fartcannon »

ActorNightly wrote: post #283
fartcannon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

USA needs better education so that people understand economics and labor markets, so they wont calling paid positions indentured servitude.

I'm from Canada, but certainly education on economics would be amazingly helpful, I agree.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#310

Post by specialist »

saas_sam wrote: post #172
Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

My anti-union sentiment arrived from my experience working with a large established union in an industrial plant. The union protected some of the worst, laziest, most unsafe workers I had ever witnessed in any job before or sense. It blew my mind how difficult it was to remove obvious bad apples, and how the best workers were forced to wait in years-long "seniority" queues before they could get promoted. I would get…

Which organizations have figured out how to handle their bad apples?
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