Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#171

Post by macinjosh » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

"why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues"

Ignorance of their own reasoning is rooted in the presupposition that the union was in their best interest and the dues were worth it. Obviously, the employees in this case did not agree it was in their interest. People think differently than others and that is OK.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#172

Post by saas_sam » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

My anti-union sentiment arrived from my experience working with a large established union in an industrial plant. The union protected some of the worst, laziest, most unsafe workers I had ever witnessed in any job before or sense. It blew my mind how difficult it was to remove obvious bad apples, and how the best workers were forced to wait in years-long "seniority" queues before they could get promoted. I would get threatened with grievances for trivial acts like carrying a single lightbulb myself without a union worker.

Every institution has a STATED purpose and an ACTUAL effect. Institutions become inefficient, corrupt, decoupled from their original goals. What keeps institutions aligned with their stated--noble--purpose, is the institution's internal incentive structure. Unions often have very bad internal incentive structures.

I would be SHOCKED if you could not find counter-examples where unions are great. It's a big round world we live on where silver linings abound. For anything. To me, right now, I do not find pro-union activists persuasive in the slightest. But I am open-minded.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#173

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#174

Post by friedman23 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

danielrpa wrote: post #49

nanna wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other countries not hiring someone because of their union affiliation is flat out illegal. (Thanks to union and political struggles to protect collective bargaining as a right)

In the US many would argue that it's not collective bargaining if you are making the employer accept an union; it's putting a gun to the employer's head in the negotiations. Employers are people too! And an employer could be a small to medium company that is barely surviving against overseas competition. I understand others would say that the employer is more powerful to begin with and thus it's just a way to balance…

Modern morality is very simple

Majority is more important than the minority.

Poor is better than rich.

Dumb is better than smart.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#175

Post by kethinov » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

trimbo wrote: post #87

Loughla wrote: post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

> I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest The answer is in the article > Some workers who voted not to unionize said they ultimately didn’t see how a union would improve their pay or working conditions. They looked at the issue and felt it would not be better. We don't know what the union was promising them, and what they had seen through the process. I came here to find…

They looked at the issue and felt incorrectly that it would not be better.

Look, I get the good intentions on all the discourse about not judging what's in another person's interests because you can't possibly know what they value, but it sure seems indisputable to me that a union would've delivered better pay and working conditions. I'm not sure in what warped universe voting against that isn't a vote against your interests and I don't think it's at all disrespectful to say they were victims of propaganda to get them to vote against their interests because when I look at the facts, that's what I see.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#176

Post by JCM9 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

It was clear getting these workers to unionize was good for the union... it was much less clear why it would be good for the workers.

People can say what they want about Amazon but the reality is they provide a far better job, wage, and benefits than most. Apart from the broad sweeping messaging around corporations = bad, unions = the answer, it wasn’t really clear at all why a union would benefit workers here. As such the result isn’t terribly surprising. The result isn’t even close.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#177

Post by josefresco » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #4

LatteLazy wrote: post #2

That's pretty overwhelming too, 71% No. It would be interesting to hear from them why. I think we all have opinions (I certainly do). But I've never worked at amazon so my opinion is low value...

I'm curious if it's the same reason I put up with !@#$ earlier in my career: I don't have the luxury of taking risks and I'm just really not interested in upsetting my employer. You tell me there's a better world on the other side of the hill, but I'm just trying to keep my children from starving this month. I can't even begin to think about the uncertainty and risk of trying to get there. Some commentary: I think th…

> I'm just really not interested in upsetting my employer.

This is the purpose of a union! Because you band together, the employer can't punish you individually. Sure they might be able to fire/replace everyone, but without a union they could target you specifically and there would be no leverage or help.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#178

Post by ivvve » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

snurfer wrote: post #65

The Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union hasn't always worked out for those workplaces that have brought them in.* In this instance, maybe unions aren't the solution to the "problem" or maybe the problem doesn't really exist? * https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...

You gotta be kidding me... this "Centre for Union Facts" is a 501(c) doesn't disclose it's donors. I'd bet dollars to donuts it's funded by businesses like Amazon and Walmart to do in their employees who want to collectively bargain. Probably a terribly biased source, for anyone who wants the real facts about unions.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#179

Post by bradleyjg » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #42

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they unionize Amazon will close down the warehouse and open it somewhere else.

Maybe. They sure will threaten to. But fact is, Amazon has quite an investment in these warehouses and wages are really just one aspect of the calculus for whether or not to keep running the warehouse. Plus, if unionization makes its way to every Amazon warehouse, then everyone will compete on equal footing vis-a-vis wages.

Very brave of you and the grandparent poster to want other people to gamble their livelihoods to advance your ideological vision.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#180

Post by JarlUlvi » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

If a union pushes improved working conditions, and the reduction of hours, this could have a substantially negative pay impact on the Amazon workers there.

Given overtime laws, and the premium pay for overtime (1.5), a valid concern may be unionization will eliminate the lucrative overtime that is highly rewarding to peak performers willing to put in long hours.