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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#121
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think reasons will vary, and I didn’t vote in this event. But in previous situations I’ve not supported unionization due to how it favored existing workers in ways I thought were unfair in that all layoffs were due to seniority not performance so older workers would be kept and younger workers laid off, no matter what. It also established more rigid pay levels that were better on average but not as good for high pe…

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but your comment reads like you were operating in a much nicer career than these workers. If your job was good enough they gave you the opportunity to negotiate your pay, you're in a totally different social class than the subjects of this vote.

It was manual labor. I’m not sure it was nicer than these workers but I was able to negotiate my pay by “working harder” and producing more than other workers.

I wouldn’t say it was a good job and I certainly don’t do it any more. But I just tried to explain my thinking.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think this is due to the bad reputation unions have. Digging a two mile tunnel eats half of the state budget? Police refuses to wear body cams? Schools are slow to reopen after covid? Rightly or not, in many people's minds unions are to blame.

> Schools are slow to reopen after covid? Are you talking hypotheticals? Because that hasn't happened, and couldn't have happened since COVID isn't "over" anywhere in the US.

If anything they’ve reopened too fast. News this morning that Michigan is closing them back down. Almost like there’s still a pandemic.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#123
post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

>I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest

It's because unions in America cannot guarantee the existence of the job. Yes, unions can force negotiations but they have no power to force the corporation to keep the factory open. (E.g. workers of Bakers union go on strike and in response, Hostess closes the factory.)

That's the tradeoff of possible negative consequences that many armchair observers totally leave out when they only emphasize benefits of unions such as "higher pay, better work conditions, etc".

I'd contend that observers who are confused why workers would "vote against their self-interest" and being "illogical" -- do not truly empathize with the poor workers' plight. (Or the observers are from Europe where unions work differently than America.)

So the workers (Volkswagen workers in TN, Nissan in TN, Boeing in SC) that voted to reject union representation weighed the game theory tradeoffs of:

(a) jobs continue to exist with better pay and conditions

... or ...

(b) jobs are eliminated leading to layoffs and pay of $0

The possible outcome of (b) becomes even more perverse in that the workers pay dues to have their jobs eliminated!

Yes, but if workers don't form a union -- "it's a race to the bottom!". Well, repeating memes is the currency of pundits rather than real cash that puts food on the table. Workers, understandably, make local decisions because they want a paycheck rather than worry about some global abstraction of "race to the bottom".

Other fields such as NFL, NBA, superstars have leverage in union negotiations. Faceless workers have much less leverage. E.g. baseball umpires (faceless and less leverage) strike but the MLB just accepts their resignations and hires replacements. The unskilled line workers in factories have even less leverage.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#124
post #111
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is indeed the primary motivator, that folks are literally getting paid so little that they can't afford the union dues then two things should happen The union should wave union dues until wages rise and ??? This seems not unlike Walmart informing employees that it is paying them so little that they qualify for Food Stamps. Looking forward to the Amazon paper, "Pareto Optimal Employee Compensation for Maintain…

Alabama is a right to work state. No one has to pay dues. https://www.justia.com/employment/unions/right-to-work-and-u... > A union is an exclusive collective bargaining agent, which means that it must fairly represent all of the workers in the bargaining unit, including those who have decided not to be members or pay dues.

Well, yes. But enough people have to vote "yes" for the union to do so. And fear of high dues could be a reason why many are voting no. Even though voting yes doesn't require them to do so.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#126
post #92

Am I the only one who thinks $500/mo seems excessive for union dues? That's $60k/yr in dues for every 10 workers. Does a union really need a full time rep for every 10 or 20 members? If, perhaps, half of that goes to "strike insurance", that would mean $15k/member over 5 years. Which would be enough replace wages(at $15/hr) for six months. Do they really anticipate a six month strike every 5 years?

It’s 500 per year not per month

Edit to add source https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/early-vote-counts-sho...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#127
Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#128
post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

Reading the replies here I’m pretty shocked by the lack of good arguments against unionisation. Its sad.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#130
post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

My theory is that rich people and well-educated people vote according to self-interest, but poor and non-educated people according to identity. Billionaires votes for whoever lowers their taxes, academics for whoever secures them, often tax-funded, jobs, but poor people for whoever they like personally.

I'm positive that education was strongly correlated with voting in favor of unionization. This is something the left everywhere struggles with enormously. When poor people are too dumb to vote according to their own self-interest, the left's worldview falls down. The left then claims that poor people are brainwashed by capitalist propaganda. Yeah, maybe, but it can't explain completely disastrous results like this unionization vote.

Misguided people will claim that unionization is not in the self-interest of most workers. Those people are wrong as there are about a billion studies showing that unionization improves both salaries and working conditions. For example: https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ The science is incredibly clear-cut and these workers who voted against unionization voted against their own self-interest.

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