Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#61

Post by prepend » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #47

prepend wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t Amazon workers paid more than average warehouse workers? ZipRecruiter shows the average in all states as under $15 [0] so an Amazon worker will likely make more than a worker in other warehouses. Doesn’t mean that they are rolling in the money, but makes me think higher wages is probably not a motivating factor for unionization. [0] https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Wa...

making $15/hour doesn't mean you suddenly have lots of money to make it rain. $15/hour means that a lot of people are just now at the point of barely making it vs the completely snowed under they were in at minimum wage

I think it depends on your circumstances but I don’t think $15/hour is a ton of money.

Warehouses are frequently in rural settings and $15 isn’t so bad. I have friends who are doing ok on $12/hour but they only have $300 rent and really low expenses. Rural America doesn’t have many upsides, but being cheap is one.

And my point wasn’t that Amazon was wonderful, just that it pays more than the alternative since the average pay is much lower ($11 vs $15 I think) at other companies.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#62

Post by gizmo385 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #36

kadomony wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and…

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

That's not at all how our tax system works. Progressive tax brackets only tax you at the new rate on the money that you've made within that tax bracket. Getting into a higher tax bracket does not result in you making less money. Ever.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#63

Post by david-w » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #36

kadomony wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and…

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

That’s a common misconception in 99% of cases, save for some welfare cliffs for really low earners. Tax brackets are graduated tiers, so not everything is taxed at the same rate.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071114/can-moving-h...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#64

Post by bdcravens » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #8

LatteLazy wrote: post #2

That's pretty overwhelming too, 71% No. It would be interesting to hear from them why. I think we all have opinions (I certainly do). But I've never worked at amazon so my opinion is low value...

My guess is the messaging about dues. Lots of people focused on the short term hit to their paychecks. Most of the stories reference $500/month. That does seem high. Data I can find for other unions shows somewhere between 1 to 4 percent of gross pay as typical for union dues. Assuming $15/hour, 4 percent of gross pay would be $144/month. But, if $500/month is accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, a…

$144/month is expensive for many.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#65

Post by snurfer » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

The Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union hasn't always worked out for those workplaces that have brought them in.* In this instance, maybe unions aren't the solution to the "problem" or maybe the problem doesn't really exist?

* https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#66

Post by AlexTWithBeard » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #9

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

I like to think this is due to the bad reputation unions have.

Digging a two mile tunnel eats half of the state budget? Police refuses to wear body cams? Schools are slow to reopen after covid? Rightly or not, in many people's minds unions are to blame.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#67

Post by didgeoridoo » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #36

kadomony wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and…

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

That’s not how tax brackets work. It is, unfortunately, how some welfare programs work. This results in benefits “cliffs” where you can lose thousands of dollars of welfare for earning a single additional dollar. If those welfare payments are how you keep a roof over your head, it’s pretty easy to get trapped right below the ceiling.

That said, you are unlikely to be eligible for these benefits at all if you are a full-time warehouse employee. They are aimed mostly at those in genuine poverty.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#68

Post by mint2 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #36

kadomony wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and…

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

That. Is. Not. How. Tax. Brackets. Work.

The. Higher. Rate. Only. Applies. To. The. Income. Amount. Extra. Above. The. Prior. Tax. Rate. Bracket.

Yes the emphasis style here is annoying but it’s such a widespread and damaging misconception

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#69

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #60

dylan604 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

That's not how tax brackets work. You never make "less" when you make more money.

Your take home is what most people consider "making" even they know their actual salary is what they "make". I made a higher salary working in a state with state income taxes. Took a pay cut to move to a state without state income taxes. My take home went up (obviously). So I "made" more in take home by "making" less.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#70

Post by rmah » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #36

kadomony wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the folks who vote aren't really the type to sit down and think long-term. $50/month in dues getting them +$2-3k more annually every two years? They won't do the math and see they'd make a net profit of whatever that annual income increase is minus $600. There was some great video floating around recently of a forklift operator or something who explained what his union dues got him and he was so informed and…

Right up until that new raise puts you in the lowest tier of the next tax bracket so that you suddenly make less by making more.

This never happens in the USA because this is not how tax brackets work. When you hit the next tax bracket, you only pay the higher rate on the income over the bracket threshold. Any income under it pays the lower bracket(s) rates.