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Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

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Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#921
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First link: DMCA problems, this is super common but Twitch is reacting to a very poorly written law. Second link: Someone got in trouble for saying "America Deserved 9/11" which is a bit beyond a controversial political opinion. Third link: Person advocated that people start shooting protestors, a literal call for violence once again beyond a controversial political opinion. Fourth Link: Played a game (not a movie) t…

> Fourth Link: Played a game (not a movie) that included nudity. Twitch has pretty clear policy on that and while it wasn't intentional on the streamers part, not allowing nudity is a pretty standard thing. From the link: >> According to Twitch rules, nudity and sexual content are allowed if they are originally part of the game, but not if the game is modded to include sexually explicit material. >> In this case, the…

So the problem is here you'll never be able to write the rule in a way that won't apply arbitrarily at least some of the time. Looking at that rule I'm guessing they wanted to disallow sex and nudity mods in games, which is pretty reasonable.

It's easy to say that Twitch should be more flexible with these things, distinguishing something like this example from a more pornographic mod, but putting more power in the hands of the individuals applying the rules will make things feel more arbitrary not less since different moderators will have different standards for when something goes too far. If you want there to be a clear rule so people know what they can or cannot do, then that means it's going to come off as overly ruthless in situations like this.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#922
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm old enough to remember when "gay people are all pedophiles" was the mainstream position given by the New York Times. It was utterly unacceptable to endorse such perverts. I'm not so old to remember the arguments about how women are too emotional to be allowed to vote, or the ones about black people, but it was pretty unacceptable to come out in defense of either of those groups either. Why in the world would I be…

These sorts of arguments always fall a bit flat with me for one simple reason: They assume a false causality. Our forbearance doesn't force others to reciprocate. If we try to stop people from encouraging the mass murder of protesters, sure, some people will look for ways to censor other ideas that I support. But if we don't oppose pro-murder propaganda, those people will still look for ways to censor ideas I support…

> But if we don't oppose pro-murder propaganda, those people will still look for ways to censor ideas I support.

I can expand on this if you're really curious. The short version is that I don't think it's realistic to expect reciprocal generosity from a party that clearly has a double standard about what is and isn't censorship. But on the other hand, we can make a choice not to literally hand that party ammunition for their arguments.

We know that laws around censorship are disproportionately targeted at minority/oppressed communities. We have over 100 years of history demonstrating that fact, from the draft protests, to McCarthyism, to the mass-deplatforming and threatening of the LGBTQ+ community, to moral panics about satan worshiping and sex in mainstream media. We also know the arguments that those people use to try and further their agendas.

They will still use those arguments even if we have Free Speech principles. The difference is that neutral observers will be able to tell that they're being hypocritical. The difference is that they'll have fewer laws on the books that they can quickly repurpose to their agenda.

When you know what someone's strategy is to attack you, when you know how Republicans are going to try and disrupt protests and attack critics, you don't play into that strategy. You try to set up an environment that is hostile to their talking points. That's how Free Speech advocacy responds to bigots -- it tries to make a general social environment where, for example, the recent Florida laws trying to shut down protests look unusual and bad and repressive even to casual observers who haven't researched the issues.

We don't expect racists and homophobes to play fair, that's why we're building a set of laws and social standards that make it harder for them to argue that it's OK to pull funding from schools that teach critical race theory. These people are better at censoring than you are; if you let them set all of the rules of engagement, then they will win.

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The opposite is also true. Free Speech and Free Association are more helpful to progressive organizations than they are to regressive movements, because most of the time regressive movements are trying to shut down conversation and to stop social evolution. You can see this happening with critical race theory, you can see this happening with BLM protests, you can see it pop up with recent efforts to restrict counseling and support structures for LGBTQ+ youth. You can even see it with how much Conservatives have freaked out over company statements on voting rights and business decisions not to work with states that pass regressive laws. Regressive movements talk a big game about Free Speech, but so much of their ideology depends on nobody questioning the status quo of how we think about race, gender, and inequality, and on punishing and ostracizing anyone in their communities that listens to critics or evolves their views over time.

Sure, they'll use Free Speech to try and argue against Freedom of Association or to claim that they're being oppressed because a football player had the "audacity" to talk about race in a public setting, but they're not particularly good at that kind of rhetoric. The arguments are ultimately unpersuasive and it's relatively easy to point out how they're being hypocritical. So by creating an environment that is Free Speech friendly, not only do we make their ideas about oppression less persuasive and harder to implement -- we also play to our strengths. We create an environment where it is easier to educate people about issues like trans liberation and to showcase the radical inequalities that exist in America. I don't think it's an accident that LGBTQ+ rights have progressed faster than other historical pushes for equality in an environment where it's easier than ever before to share information about people's day-to-day struggles and experiences. So much of regressive ideology relies on people being able to block out progressive movements and to filter/mischaracterize what progressive movements say.

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So long story short, TLDR regressive/bigoted movements do abuse Free Speech to defend themselves, but it's mostly rhetoric. They are more reliant on censorship than on a free flow of information to further their goals. To the extent that they really care about Free Speech, they're mostly just arguing to get rid of Freedom of Association and to force people to stop criticizing them or kicking them out of privately owned spaces.

So when we build societies that are resistant to censorship, we're not saying that those people will play along and respect our rules. And we do accept that on the tail-end of certain movements (esp conspiracy theories), Free Speech does genuinely make our job harder. But what we're trying to do is to create a battlefield for progressivism that (overall) plays to our strengths and exploits their weaknesses.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Private companies now own most of the highways we use for speech, much less widespread speech. The highway is the one thing they do not own. They own exits on the highway. But no one is stopping anyone from sending emails. Or setting up their own website and messaging service. It is easier and cheaper today to to connect with others and express yourself without the need for private companies than it has ever been in…

>But no one is stopping anyone from sending emails. Or setting up their own website and messaging service. Parler was literally kicked off of AWS and Twillio.

> Parler was literally kicked off of AWS and Twillio.

Right, because AWS is literally the only way to host a website, and Twilio is literally the only way to send emails.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#924
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First link: DMCA problems, this is super common but Twitch is reacting to a very poorly written law. Second link: Someone got in trouble for saying "America Deserved 9/11" which is a bit beyond a controversial political opinion. Third link: Person advocated that people start shooting protestors, a literal call for violence once again beyond a controversial political opinion. Fourth Link: Played a game (not a movie) t…

> Someone got in trouble for saying "America Deserved 9/11" which is a bit beyond a controversial political opinion. Why do you say that? I would definitely file that under controversial political opinion. That opinion isn't calling for another one, or saying that the individuals killed deserved it. Especially because he's saying it out of disappointment, not anger.

It's a difficult point, because it's very hard to say that without basically implying the people deserved to die. I disagree that it's not saying that.

"The perpetrators' motives were rational, based on America's policies and actions" is one thing (which I happen to agree with), but anytime you start indirectly justifying civilian massacres, it's a slippery slope. "America" isn't just the government but also the set of people living in the country.

Did Japan deserve the nuclear bombings, and did post-defeat Germany deserve ransacking and worse? On one hand, of course the leadership deserved severe reprisal, and their governments and forces did even worse things when taken in total, but if you're a person on the ground seeing civilians brutalized and killed, "desert" becomes a much more flawed notion.

An example for watchers of Attack on Titan, without spoiling anything: did [X] deserve [Y]?

So, I probably agree with that Twitch streamer's sentiment, but I disagree with the way they said it and I understand why Twitch suspended them.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A KKK member could presumably still buy food if banned from a grocery store for preaching hate speech at the grocery store, they would just have to hire someone to do the shopping for them. In America there is no right to food or shelter so I don't know why this concern is raised in a discussion of free speech?

> In America there is no right to food or shelter Yes, there definitely is. Food and shelter are vital to life. I seem to recall something about life liberty and happiness in some obscure little read part of the constitution. Let me know if you see it on a re-read. (Please don’t go off and try and claim that rights are things anyone else has to provide) Aside from the obvious issues with banning someone from buying f…

Did you really just state "Please don’t go off and try and claim that rights are things anyone else has to provide" while arguing a supermarket has to provide food and Twitch has to provide a platform to everyone? Huh?

U.S. citizens do not have a right to food.

At first I thought the problem was not understanding the legal system, but your misunderstanding is not even consistent, suggesting your just making things up ad hoc.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#926

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the freedom to be murdered in a mass shooting or go bankrupt due to a basic medical issue. I think much of the world thinks that the American "System" is rather disturbing and callous.

Sure, have all your money taken without a say to be given crap, rationed care, or most likely die waiting in line. And on top of that have no way defend yourself or your friends if a new dictator comes to town to send you off to a new summer camp.

>Sure, have all your money taken without a say to be given crap, rationed care, or most likely die waiting in line.

Talk about strawman. By any objective measure the US healthcare system is the worst in the developed world.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#927

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the freedom to be murdered in a mass shooting or go bankrupt due to a basic medical issue. I think much of the world thinks that the American "System" is rather disturbing and callous.

This is a strawman, we are talking about workers right in the US, not healthcare or gun control. You may disagree with the way work is regulated in the US, but at least attack those regulations instead of trying to derail into two other, highly nuanced and emotional, subject matters.

>This is a strawman, we are talking about workers right in the US, not healthcare or gun control.

Thats not what strawman means and the parent comment was talking about taxes, regulation and "individual freedom." Not wanting to die in a mass shooting or go bankrupt due to medical costs are certainly not highly nuanced...

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#928
post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the freedom to be murdered in a mass shooting or go bankrupt due to a basic medical issue. I think much of the world thinks that the American "System" is rather disturbing and callous.

And that's why nobody in the world wants to immigrate to the US.

Certainly very few people from the EU are.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#929
post #906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In America there is no right to food or shelter Yes, there definitely is. Food and shelter are vital to life. I seem to recall something about life liberty and happiness in some obscure little read part of the constitution. Let me know if you see it on a re-read. (Please don’t go off and try and claim that rights are things anyone else has to provide) Aside from the obvious issues with banning someone from buying f…

> Yes, there definitely is. Food and shelter are vital to life. I seem to recall something about life liberty and happiness in some obscure little read part of the constitution. Let me know if you see it on a re-read. You are mistaken, and have confused the US declaration of independence (not a legal document, more of a philosophical one) with the US constitution (a binding legal document). I did a re-read to be sure…

There's no right to life in the constitution, either. If there was, the U.S. would not be able to execute criminals.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#930
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this response in the context of a sport like the NBA. If the ref is secretly racist and bans you from the sport because it's "funny" as their excuse, would you react this way? The nature of videogames doesn't make the professional sport of them juvenile and less worthy of rigorous standards for inclusion.

The NBA is an organization who's job it is to set rules that teams, athletes, and referees can participate in. They can choose to fire refs who behave this way, and they would because they make more money if the refs aren't racists (especially now that they're getting more into racial activism) Twitch is basically the NBA of their streaming platform, as in they set rules for how streamers, viewers, and moderators int…

Your analogy is wrong, and so was mine. It is not the refs banning players, it would be the television sports broadcasters. Makes even less sense.
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