Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#421

Post by FredPret » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

estebank wrote: post #304

FredPret wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practically speaking, keeping 100% of the ice off of even well-used sidewalks 100% of the time all winter long isn't going to happen. All it takes is one patch of black ice and you can have a very serious bike crash. There's also a safety issue in that if you're in that kind of cold for long enough, it'll kill you, jacket or no jacket.

> Practically speaking, keeping 100% of the ice off of even well-used sidewalks 100% of the time all winter long isn't going to happen. Again, it's a matter of infrastructure and priorities: https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU?t=260 > There's also a safety issue in that if you're in that kind of cold for long enough, it'll kill you, jacket or no jacket. In any situation where being outside for the time a commute could take…

I’m genuinely surprised by that video. That would certainly make Canadian winters more cyclable.

However, what if you have a 30-60 min commute and it’s -20, -30 out? You can easily drive that, but cycling is another matter.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#422

Post by garyrichardson » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #249

garyrichardson wrote: post #82

> This is partly because electric cars aren’t truly zero-carbon – mining the raw materials for their batteries, manufacturing them and generating the electricity they run on produces emissions. Ok. But then unless you're hand making the bikes out of wood you scavenged from fallen trees and don't use rubber tires, neither are bikes. Like many pro cycling articles this one is one sided and assumes there is one solution…

> Ok. But then unless you're hand making the bikes out of wood you scavenged from fallen trees and don't use rubber tires, neither are bikes. Are you honestly trying to imply the making a bike has even a vaguely similar environmental impact as making a car? I mean seriously, a bike weights at most 20kg. A car at least 1000kg. That means you should be able get at least 50 bikes out of a single car.

No. I'm making two points:

1) Bikes aren't environmentally free either. Over the lifetime of each is the environmental impact of an ICE car -> EV the same as EV -> bike? Maybe not percentage wise but the data I've seen implies getting the ICE car off the road is the most important step. It's like the comparison of going from 10mpg SUV -> 30mpg compact car is more important than a 30mpg compact car to a 50mpg hybrid.

2) convincing everyone to switch to bicycles isn't realistic. More bikes is better. Wholistic solutions beyond just bikes are required.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#423

Post by josephcsible » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

> Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own.

Even this depends on where you live, though to a lesser degree. In particular, if you live somewhere that you have to park on the street, you're 100% dependent on others for charging infrastructure.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#424

Post by fooker » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

selectodude wrote: post #417

WorldMaker wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An issue in that "political favor" calculus is money: A) Cars have a tall stack of interest groups with money to throw around politically. Manufacturers, Dealerships, Gas corporations. lobbying groups including, especially, but not limited to the AAA all have skin in the game and have thrown money at politics. (In general bicycle groups are rarely as organized, rarely have much in the way of profits or income to burn…

> Today roads are partly paid for with gas taxes and sometimes vehicle property taxes. Which is hilarious because road damage squares with the weight of the vehicle and bike lanes would need to be repaved maybe once per century.

Any place with a seasonal temperature variation needs significant road repairs every 2-3 years, if not more often.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#425

Post by jryle70 » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #347

jedberg wrote: post #35

Switching from gas to electric is something I can do all on my own. Switching from gas car to cycling is something that would require major investments from my city and developers. Both are noble goals, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Switch to electric now, and also encourage new roads and new developments to be bike friendly, so that switching to a bike is something that will be viable in 20 or 30 y…

Rather than switching people who already own a car to bikes, it’s much much easier to keep people who bike biking: i.e. India, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. and not let them adopt a car centric pony of view (as well as students in the US/Can. who are 16 going on 18 and steer them towards bikes.

Motorbikes, not bicycles, are the dominant transportation method in all those countries. Also, because of the hot weather and pollution it's just much more comfortable to sit in an air conditioned car. And then there is the factor of owning a car, used to be the symbol of wealth but is now more affordable.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#426

Post by garyrichardson » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:02 AM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #240

garyrichardson wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live on the west coast in Canada. We have lots of bike lines. It's 30KM of them up and down multiple hills (most people would consider mountains) for me to get to work. Realistically, you've got to convince me to leave my 3000+sqft house (with bedrooms for all my kids) and yard to move to a 1000sqft apartment in the city (and make my kids share a room) and take on a bigger mortgage so that I'm closer to work. Also…

In the city you should be close enough to the store that you just get the days groceries as you go by. The lack of affordable 2500sq ft apartments is the big failure. It doesn't cost that much more to build them, and so rent shouldn't be any more than a house payment ($1500/month!). If that doesn't exist it is because zoning won't let them build it. (or more likely they can, but why do that when you can get more $$$…

Where I live the numbers your suggesting would be amazing!

In Vancouver proper, Average 3 bedroom house price is $2.1M. A townhouse or condo of that size is $1.5M. Your typical house payment is going to be much higher than $1500/month. Rents are probably in the $3K+ range -- I don't actually have data on this. Lots of factors there. I don't think zoning is one of them as there is constantly land assemblies and razing blocks of houses for town houses and condos. I suspect it's more geography: we're up against and ocean, a border and a mountain range.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#427

Post by olivermarks » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:08 AM UTC

dfgdghdf wrote: post #387

olivermarks wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source is my sister's practical and local experience. the Private Eye podcast covered LTN's recently in some detail also https://soundcloud.com/privateeyenews/page-94-the-private-ey... 15 minutes in

I listened to your source, but I'm afraid it wasn't very convincing. The evidence they presented was an ambulance driver who had to go around a modal filter via side-streets to get to a patient who later died. We do not know if the patient died because of the LTN. I am aware of a case where Ealing council failed to delivery keys to an ambulance service - perhaps this was that? That error has now been rectified. Needl…

There's plenty of Private Eye coverage as I previously stated if you're interested in their perspective in 'rotten boroughs' although it sounds as though you are a convinced enthusiast of LTN. Not sure if you bothered to listen to the part of the podcast about the claim (also a component of resident lawsuits https://twitter.com/ShimanoSteve/status/1358509807297298432 etc) that wealthy 'leafy' boroughs are having traffic routed away from them at the expense of poorer areas getting more traffic, resulting in greater pollution.

My original point is that my sister can no longer cycle and is dismayed to find it a lot harder to get around by car, while her son (a v strong cyclist) has to pay £15 congestion charge every time he uses his car as he lives on a band. He is convinced London has 'a war on cars'.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#428

Post by tzs » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:09 AM UTC

zip1234 wrote: post #384

fvdessen wrote: post #307

Cycling is not only good for the environment, but for cities in general. During the last confinement, when car traffic completely stopped, I realised that cars are the single biggest reason why living in the city can be unpleasant. People may not realise it consciously, but when they move out of the city, what they are looking for is a place with not as much cars driving around. Cars destroy cities by making a viciou…

It still boggles my mind that, with a 15% car ownership rate, how NYC not only still allows cars, but subsidizes them with absolutely free parking on city streets. The real estate price for a single parking spot in NYC must be astronomical.

45% of NYC households own cars, which is probably more indicative of how many people use them than how many individuals own cars.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#429

Post by rtlfe » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:10 AM UTC

moistbar wrote: post #410

rtlfe wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say the same thing about winter in the Northeast. Then when they see how convenient and freeing it is to ride a bike, they quickly learn to deal with the weather.

If you're claiming that people will still ride their bikes to work when it's 20 F outside, you're incorrect.

I'm not sure how to respond to somebody so confidently asserting something so obviously false, but maybe photographic evidence will help?

https://nypost.com/2020/12/20/cyclists-frozen-out-of-bike-la...

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#430

Post by alex_g » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 12:11 AM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #375

alex_g wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the only way to cycle safely in the city is to pretend you're a full sized motor vehicle, it sounds like you understand how ridiculous it is that the roads are designed for and devoted to cars.

I think this is the wrong framing. The correct framing is, each lawful user of a roadway has equal rights to occupying space on that roadway. As a frequent city cyclist, I take the lane early and often as is my lawful right, signalling unequivocally my intention and impending action to merge into the traffic lane. Most often I use this right when avoiding someone double-parked in the bike lane, or when turning left a…

In the eyes of the law, sure it's not the right framing. But I'm looking at what I think makes sense for the future. I think our cities would be better with more cyclists and less cars.

I don't think that's accomplished by encouraging equal use of roadways. I think that means space currently designated for cars should be reduced to make way for other modes of transportation.