Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#501

Post by zp33 » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #142

tw04 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want the government to force private companies to continue doing business with someone they no longer wish to provide services to? We aren't talking protected class here, we're talking private companies picking and choosing who to do business with via non-discriminatory means. That's called a free market. Will they be restored if they're proven innocent? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, that's called a free market.

At a certain point, these platforms have such enormous, unprecedented influence and control over public discourse, that they aught to be thought of differently than, say a restaurant refusing service to a guy without a shirt or shoes on. We're clearly in uncharted territory, when it comes to the control and release of information. Just using Twitter and Facebook for example - they've silenced the second-most voted fo…

It's Trumps own fault that he chose Twitter to be his way of messaging the public. Why not build whitehouse.gov/words_from_the_pres? Twitter isn't funded by taxpayers and we aren't entitled to it.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#502

Post by kodah » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #483

kodah wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people generally mention accountability when it suits them, specifically when it suits their group morals. Accountability to me is that the government teaches them a lesson, some company doesn't need to jump in line to punish them for me to feel satiated -- that job is done by the government. Moral communities are just that though, tiny groups that would like to exercise their power and worldliness on others…

So you think companies are acting in a moral interest and not in perceived financial interest?

I think the financial interest is connected to moral interest.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#503

Post by madeofpalk » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

weird-eye-issue wrote: post #482

onethought wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t this just like other sports, where a star is pilloried for some indiscretion outside of their sport which can result in them being dropped from a team etc?

That is up to the team though. This is closer to a TV station banning somebody so now they can't compete in a sport that will be broadcast on that station, forcing the team to kick them off.

Shouldn’t a TV station be able to decide whether they want to promote a pedophile?

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#504

Post by josephcsible » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #489

Thorentis wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh look, another "but it's a private company" defence of this behaviour. Imagine a town with a single supermarket. The closest next town is a 10 hour drive away. A certain individual commits a crime, and is punished for it by the local authorities. The supermarket then decides that they are going to ban this individual from their store because of "severe misconduct" in the community. Is this fair? Obviously, Twitch i…

That's not an argument against moderation. That's an argument against monopolies and oligopolies. Banning a guy from the store isn't even in the top 10 worst things that will be going wrong in that scenario.

Okay, that's another way to fix the problem then: break Twitch up into 100 baby Twitches, and don't let anyone have ownership/stake/control of more than one of them. If all 100 decide to ban someone, they probably deserve to be banned, and if they don't, then the person can keep streaming on one that didn't.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#505

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #297

nitrogen wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second quote should be no more or less controversial than saying that any of the countries the US invaded afterward also deserved those invasions. 9/11 was, in part, blowback from previous American foreign policy. Interpreting that as saying that people deserve to be killed by terrorists is 1. confusing a country as a whole with its citizens as individuals and 2. an unrealistically literal interpretation of clea…

I think discussions about invasions and attacks, even if they are uncomfortable, is totally reasonable. I'll happily talk with you about why American Imperialism is bad until I'm blue in the face. I will say, when someone says we should attack civilians because of their government's foreign policy, I will say that crosses a line. It's unacceptable in my view. There's a huge gap between, "We should have uncomfortable…

It's unacceptable in my view.

Mine too, but it's standard rhetoric among a very, very large part (possibly a near-majority) of the US population. Tech companies are fueling that fire by showing that (from that perspective), yes, they really are the paternalistic coastal elites that the other half of the country suspected they were. Leaving aside the many ways in which this weapon of platform banning can be abused by future shifts in power -- Google, Twitter, AWS, and now Twitch are not helping the causes they claim to be helping with prominent bans, they are just building taller walls around the various echo chambers.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#506

Post by beaner » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

ohazi wrote: post #457

CBLT wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add a little extra context to what other people are giving you: large, million-dollar digital tournaments stream on Twitch because they have no other choice if they want to reach viewers. ESL signed a deal with Facebook streaming that destroyed their viewership numbers because people go to Twitch to watch, not the website for the tournament. Organizers have clearly seen this and will not move their stream to anoth…

> no other choice if they want to reach viewers > are incredibly few esports careers that could survive a Twitch ban (emphasis mine) People have never been entitled to a sports career, or to celebrity status by reaching viewers on someone else's platform. These platforms have democratized the "rags to riches" story, but whether it was the '30s or the '60s or the '90s, you've always had to play by the rules of the pre…

No, it just means your eligibility for a professional career may come down to whether or not a random mod on a streaming platform simply thinks it's "funny" to ban you.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#507

Post by gambiting » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #492

gambiting wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really shitty argument though. Would I be happy to earn $100k a year? Sure I would. Would I give up my 28 days of paid holidays per year, unlimited sick leave, year long maternity leave, free healthcare, free education for my children, and yes, 3 months of notice that gives me incredible amount of stability in my life for that higher pay? Absolutely not. At will employment is an abomination of the American e…

I make a lot more than 100K, I have unlimited vacation, unlimited sick leave. Only 12 weeks of FMLA, so there's that. And healthcare isn't free anywhere in the world, just financed differently. I pay for my insurance from my paycheck, but the paycheck is so much larger that it works out fine. My deductible is zero, out-of-pocket maximum is zero, so it's not effectively much different than 'free' healthcare. I am well…

>>I make a lot more than 100K

That's all well and good, but most Americans don't and therefore they cannot afford the same social benefits that nearly all EU citizens just have as standard. Yes, I am aware that you can live an extremely good life in America if you're rich. Most people aren't rich though.

>>My deductible is zero, out-of-pocket maximum is zero, so it's not effectively much different than 'free' healthcare.

And what is your insurance like if you get fired tomorrow?

>>unlimited sick leave.

Unlimited paid sick leave?

>>I am well aware of how much Europeans hate America.

I don't hate America, I would love to come over and visit, you guys have beautiful national parks. There's just zero chance I would ever agree to come and live there.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#508

Post by DavidVoid » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

fX0rObfoMN4 wrote: post #50

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty" For a platform like Twitch, this is fine. They have a brand. They’re akin to a modern television channel, and television has always been this ruthless. There are lots of other streaming sites.

If someone who stream on Twitch does something bad off of Twitch, would people blame Twitch for that? I know I wouldn't.

They wouldn't blame Twitch for what that person did, but they would blame Twitch for continuing to host them on their site.

For example: if Twitch hosts a well-known sexual abuser and groomer who's known for taking advantage of vulnorable fans, then people will be rightfully upset with Twitch for giving them an audience.

This is why Ryan Haywood got permanently banned from Twitch. Some of his victims and many of his former fans reached out to Twitch and said "hey, this guy is an abusive and manipulative piece of shit who will take advantage of vulnerable fans if he gets the chance. Please don't provide him with a megaphone and a potential audience."

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#509

Post by Ekaros » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

I wonder what are the data protection implications of such actions. Like can they really store your name and perceived actions somewhere if you aren't even associated with their service yet? Is that legal in EU? Should it even be?

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#510

Post by madeofpalk » Wed, Apr 07, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

enjoythecode wrote: post #375

shadowfox wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How different is that from at-will employment though? You can be fired at any time and for more or less any non-federally-protected reason (and can quit any time too). That seems pretty uncontroversial in the US at least.

There are thousands of other employers you can apply to and work for. You'll be unemployed in the short term, but getting fired isn't catastrophic long-term, for the most part. The parallel doesn't really exist for Twitch. Other than perhaps YouTube, are there any platforms that would get you anywhere close to the pool of potential users on Twitch?

Twitch has reasonable competition - YouTube and to a significantly lesser extent Facebook Gaming.

But let’s take a step back here - no one is entitled to be a Full time professional streamer. Say you do something egregious (or not) and get banned from all streaming sites - just go get another job? Twitch doesn’t have a monopoly on employment.