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Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

reuters.com

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Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#51

Post by TameAntelope »

dimgl wrote: post #33
tenebrisalietum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your speech is really valuable you shouldn't depend on the free services of a privately-owned ad-supported company meant for streaming games to propagate it. Furthermore speech as the forefathers probably meant was people physically going to town squares and talking there. There is free press, which is what social media is more like, and the owner of a press has the right to decide what he/she will print--the Cons…

Just because you (and dozens of others on this site) continue make this argument over and over doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. Edit: someone built that town square. Someone founded those forums. At the end of the day, someone is always in control of something.

Free speech includes reacting to what someone else has said.

You can make an argument about whether or not people should have thicker skin, but you can't make an argument that people should not be allowed to react to speech without forfeiting the moral concept of freedom of speech.

Someone did build the town square, and if that someone was a private entity, that someone can kick everyone right the heck out of the town square, because it's theirs. If the people of the town want to make that reality different, they should probably band together and purchase the town square and own it collectively, as a government.

If you think Twitch, Twitter, HN or Reddit are such critical infrastructure, then you should lobby your government to purchase them.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#52

Post by aeturnum »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13
redm wrote: post #8

"The company said users will be able to report such behaviors but it may also investigate cases proactively, for instance if there is a verified news report that a user has been arrested." So we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty"? And if proven guilty, they will both be punished under the law, and again by companies like Twitch? If proven innocent will they be restored? W…

> we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty" For a platform like Twitch, this is fine. They have a brand. They’re akin to a modern television channel, and television has always been this ruthless. There are lots of other streaming sites.

I agree that twitch is within their rights. I also think we're within our rights to pressure them to adopt standards we would like. The law has long recognized different rights for "public figures" and private citizens, and I think that most Twitch users are better understood as private citizens. Even if I felt the behavior policing history of media was perfect (I do not), I think this is different in important ways.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#53

Post by Veen »

Bud wrote: post #34
redm wrote: post #8

"The company said users will be able to report such behaviors but it may also investigate cases proactively, for instance if there is a verified news report that a user has been arrested." So we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty"? And if proven guilty, they will both be punished under the law, and again by companies like Twitch? If proven innocent will they be restored? W…

[flagged]

Yes, mob justice and public humiliation are very useful when people do and think things you don't like. Just what we need to deeply heal our damaged society.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#54

Post by PeterisP »

redm wrote: post #8

"The company said users will be able to report such behaviors but it may also investigate cases proactively, for instance if there is a verified news report that a user has been arrested." So we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty"? And if proven guilty, they will both be punished under the law, and again by companies like Twitch? If proven innocent will they be restored? W…

Presumption of innocence and proven beyond all reasonable doubt is the bar that has to be met in order to put someone in prison.

However, people are completely entitled to decide to shun someone or not do business with them based on mere suspicion or some arbitrary subjective standards (with certain narrow exceptions e.g. discrimination of protected classes) - "freedom of association" is the default condition and a key freedom, people and companies are free to choose with whom they want to (not) associate.

Freedom of association is not absolute, some limitations can be justified (the discrimination laws are a good example) but there does need to be a solid justification and specific serious harm prevented if you want to argue that someone or some organization needs to be denied that freedom of association.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#55

Post by fX0rObfoMN4 »

justapassenger wrote: post #38
cik wrote: post #7

Is there any doubt that we've entered the era of approved, or not free speech. 'Severe misconduct' today means racist behaviour, perhaps tomorrow it means support for the NRA, or anti-environmental behaviour. The thought police have finally invaded ever part of society.

You should really educate yourself on what free speech actually is in USA. It protects you, from government limiting your speech (with some exceptions). Private companies can do whatever they want - that’s their free speech law, that was reaffirmed by Supreme Court in 2010. I don’t support twitch decision, but it’s their business, they are free to set their own rules. And I’m free not to use their services as a resul…

You are talking about the 1st amendment. Free speech is a principle whereas the 1st amendment restricts the government from violating that principle in its relations with the populace.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#56

Post by madamelic »

thelean12 wrote: post #37
redm wrote: post #8

"The company said users will be able to report such behaviors but it may also investigate cases proactively, for instance if there is a verified news report that a user has been arrested." So we've arrived at "innocent until accused" instead of "innocent until proven guilty"? And if proven guilty, they will both be punished under the law, and again by companies like Twitch? If proven innocent will they be restored? W…

I'm not sure why you say "arrived". People have always been fired for arrests at some companies. Twitch is basically their employer, so it's not much different here. Whether it should be allowed or not by law can be a different discussion, but we don't have to pretend that this is new

>Twitch is basically their employer, so it's not much different here.

Oh awesome. I am sure Twitch streamers are looking forward to guaranteed minimum wage, paid time-off, health insurance, etc.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#57

Post by colllectorof »

Bud wrote: post #35
cik wrote: post #7

Is there any doubt that we've entered the era of approved, or not free speech. 'Severe misconduct' today means racist behaviour, perhaps tomorrow it means support for the NRA, or anti-environmental behaviour. The thought police have finally invaded ever part of society.

Please look up what "free speech" actually means, in order to disabuse yourself of the notion that private companies' actions have anything to do with it.

No.

If you know anything about history, you know that attacks on free speech do not have to start or stop with official government sanction. In Soviet Union it wasn't uncommon for dissidents and their families to be nominally "free", while being unable to find employment, housing or otherwise get basics for operating in the society. It worked through a backstage "reputation" system that begins to look eerily familiar.

And BTW, the driving force behind a lot of free speech suppression in the past wasn't "the government" per se but "the party" that happened to control the government.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#58

Post by thelean12 »

madamelic wrote: post #56
thelean12 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you say "arrived". People have always been fired for arrests at some companies. Twitch is basically their employer, so it's not much different here. Whether it should be allowed or not by law can be a different discussion, but we don't have to pretend that this is new

>Twitch is basically their employer, so it's not much different here. Oh awesome. I am sure Twitch streamers are looking forward to guaranteed minimum wage, paid time-off, health insurance, etc.

What's your point? Does it change my point if they're considered contractors vs employees vs hobbyists vs whatever?

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#59

Post by dgellow »

challengly wrote: post #14

Are corporations the new government? New form of legal or justice system?

That's of course a stretch, no corporations aren't governments and aren't a new form of legal system. They are still subject to regulation. But I get your sentiment. I see an interesting point here: corporations like Twitch, while registered in a specific country (here the US) have a global reach. But their culture and set of rules is generally uniform, and heavily influenced by the country the company is from. Twitch is a US company, their way to analyze cultural/moral issues is with an American point of view and framing, but they are applied globally.

In some ways that extends the reach of US systems in a way even the US government cannot do, unless Twitch starts to create versions of their platform siloed by country.

Re: Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs away from its site

#60

Post by ronsor »

Because this is always brought up, I will remark that I believe what the majority of commenters likely mean by free speech is the principle itself, and not the restrictions imposed on the government by the First Amendment. First and foremost, free speech is a moral principle.

Secondly, while private companies can do what they want, that does not mean they should. Private companies like Apple can avoid taxes, yet many here would not say they should. Morals and ethics are often divorced from what the law requires.

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