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Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

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Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#141
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Signal needs to keep core feature parity to remain competitive with WhatsApp, Telegram etc. And that includes a payment mechanism. A payment mechanism just isn't a core chat application feature.

This is like saying "a phone should just make phone calls!" It was true in the past, but is no longer true today.

No. Not every app needs to become an operating system for life. We can have multiple apps on a device with little to no inconvenience. Carrying multiple devices is much more cumbersome.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#142
post #35

I think there are 3 attitudes towards Signal: 1. Anger from purists who care about the fact it's not decentralised, and that Moxie runs the show, and that it uses phone numbers etc etc... 2. Indifference from those who have never heard of it 3. Joy from those who are extremely happy a decent, private, alternative to Facebook/Whatsapp exists My worry is that group 1) try and ruin it for the rest of us. Signal is liter…

> But Signal needs to keep core feature parity to remain competitive with WhatsApp, Telegram etc. And that includes a payment mechanism.

What it needs is not reaching feature-parity (although that will appeal to the mass, can't blame the), but to keep privacy as the central feature of the platform, and always move toward improving that feature.

And yes, the fact that Signal uses a phone number as the main identifier is a problem regarding privacy. And they did update their Signal-Server repo, but it took a while before it was and that's likely because they were trying to finalize that cryptocurrency feature before announcing it, but an apparent lack of transparency can lower the user-base's trust toward the platform.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#143
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moxie has a history of being an asshole to anyone trying to make a third-party client. They're prohibited from using the OWS servers, which do not federate (so they couldn't talk to Signal users), and Moxie has attacked third-party software over trademark issues, too. Any Signal fork is likely to be DoA, thanks to Moxie's deliberate actions.

Not everyone agrees that protecting a brand and controlling who connects to and uses a service you run and pay for is "being an asshole". Lots of people pretty readily made the choice to move from WhatsApp to Signal when the benefits became clear. There's nothing stopping anyone from forking the client/server and running their own network - if there are meaningful benefits to end users of the fork, there should be no…

"Protecting the brand and controlling who connects to your service" is what put Moxie in a position of power from which cryptocurrency garbage could be introduced to scam money from its users. That's all there is to it. I call that being an asshole.

Nothing stops you from forking the network, except for the fact that none of the users come along. Signal holds its users hostage. I call that being an asshole.

Calling it open source and saying "anyone can fork it!", then threatening legal action against anyone who does just that and dares to mention the word Signal in their documentation? I call that being an asshole.

Moxie is an asshole.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#144
If Signal really cared, they would've chosen a better cryptocurrency.

MobileCoin is not a "real", decentralized cryptocurrency like Bitcoin. All of the initial supply is owned by the MobileCoin foundation and all TX fees go to them. Without this partnership nobody would've cared besides a few speculators.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#145
post #119

99% of the opposition to Signal integrating cryptocurrency payment seems to be from people who generally disagree with the idea of cryptocurrencies (the article has this position). These arguments of course are veiled as keeping the Signal app "pure" and focused on encrypted messaging. I've rarely seen people kick up this kind of fuss with other messaging features so it just reeks of being disingenuous. At least be h…

It's not just opposition to cryptocurrencies per se, the choice of Mobilecoin is also problematic[0]. On top of that you have to trust Intel. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26715348

> It's not just opposition to cryptocurrencies per se, the choice of Mobilecoin is also problematic[0]. On top of that you have to trust Intel.

> [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26715348

No you don't - no-one's forcing you to use it.

At the end of the day, you have to trust someone, whether it's a tech vendor, a software project lead, or even the person you're conversing with. What's important is that you get to continue to consciously exercise that choice.

I choose to use signal, and have no interest in this random crypto nonsense thingie, so I'll choose to not use that bit.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#146

99% of the opposition to Signal integrating cryptocurrency payment seems to be from people who generally disagree with the idea of cryptocurrencies (the article has this position). These arguments of course are veiled as keeping the Signal app "pure" and focused on encrypted messaging. I've rarely seen people kick up this kind of fuss with other messaging features so it just reeks of being disingenuous. At least be h…

> 99% of the opposition to Signal integrating cryptocurrency payment seems to be from people who generally disagree with the idea of cryptocurrencies

Most crypto projects are a scam, but some are great. I do hold bitcoin since I started doing research on cryptocurrencies for my bachelor thesis on that topic back in 2013.

Adding cryptocurrency capabilities to Signal is a very bad idea for many reasons.

It has almost no practical value for users of Signal. Those who want to use a wallet for the currency of their choice can always download one and probably already did so. That's the superior solution because it's not just coin-agnostic, but promotes choice: if it's not a good wallet they can change the app without suffering though network effects, something they can't do with their messenger.

The regulatory environment for messaging is drastically different from the regulatory environment for cryptocurrencies. The latter is less consistent, less clear and still faces high regulatory risks in some markets. The first one has clear advocates and strong theoretical backing in all democracies while the second is still on very shaky grounds with varying degrees of good will in society. I have yet to read an argument why stretching one product to fit both environments might be a great idea, or even just a prudent choice of risk management.

It is hurting Signals reputation, which is Signals main selling point. For several reasons:

That direction surprised many people as Signal is far from a feature complete messenger. Almost everyone agrees that there is real work to do regarding, for example, multi-device support, history portability or the decoupling of phone number and identity. A wallet for an almost unheard cryptocurrency might feel random to many, given the many features users are still waiting for.

Another reason for why this feature is hurting Signals reputation is that cryptocurrencies, just as you said in your comment, are controversial for many. Some projects are more, others are less controversial and MobileCoin - for now - seems to be in the more suspicious camp.

It's generally, in branding, not a winning strategy to tie your good brands to your bad brands. You would want to keep them neatly separated until they are both successful just so that you can drop your less successful brands without putting your winners at risk. ... and you would do that despite believing in the success of all your projects.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already a Free Software. Huge fork in 10... 9... 8...

I look forward to replacing Signal with Noise.

Trevor Perin created both protocols. Noise isn’t an asynchronous messaging protocol. So it won’t replace Signal. WhatsApp use Noise and Signal together.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#148
post #61

PGP doesn't have this problem

In particular PGP running on email or XMPP doesn't have this problem. The advantage comes from the base federated messaging system.

Don't get me wrong. PGP is great as a simple standardized cryptography protocol intended for messaging. It should be used just for the standardization. The cryptography of encrypted messaging is an easy problem and has been well solved. We need to move on to the problem of how to explain it to the rest of the world well enough so they can use it.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#149
I don't like crypto, but I especially don't like random shitcoins that I've never heard of because they generally are only used for pump-and-dump schemes.

Anyways, my trust in Signal seems to be monotonically decreasing over time. Such is how it works, unfortunately.

Re: Signal Adds Cryptocurrency Support

#150
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems wrong, is like if Mozilla forces crypto in Firefox. there will be many Firefox users that will not like it, it is not only the haters or Chrome users that will complain, hopefully maybe you can see the missing 4th perspective.

I don't believe the main competitors to Firefox (Chrome, Edge, Safari) offer a payment mechanism? So this wouldn't be required for core feature parity. However the two main competitors to Signal (Telegram and Whatsapp imo) do have a payment mechanism.

Keeping up with the Joneses is rarely a good motivation
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