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A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

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Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#221

Post by tremon »

Ardren wrote: post #88
Zanni wrote: post #27

A critique of "A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS": the author claims that Stallman's transphobia is down to Stallman proposing a set of singular, gender-neutral pronouns other than 'they', 'their' and theirs'. Which Stallman indeed does, but if you read on, Stallman also says he'll flat out refuse to use someone's preferred pronouns if they disagree with his scheme. To overlook that in a cr…

RMS' entire post about gender pronouns is weird [1] > There are those who claim that we have an obligation to refer to someone using whatever pronouns person might choose. I disagree with that position, on grounds of principle and grounds of practice. I think we should respect other people's gender identification, but which pronouns we use for any particular gender identification is a separate matter — a matter of gr…

I don't see the weirdness. I see two statements:

- A person may choose which pronouns apply to themselves (on grounds of principle)

- A person must not dictate which pronouns apply to a whole gender (on grounds of practice)

I'd be interested to [hear] when [RMS] would not use someone's preferred pronoun and instead call them a 'perse'?

Presumably, when the pronoun preference of the person isn't known to the speaker?

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#222

Post by gher-shyu3i »

tremon wrote: post #219
gher-shyu3i wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about the issue in general, not just what Stallman said. If someone comes up to you and told you he identifies as an Apache helicopter gunship, are you going to think he's insane, or are you going to cater to him?

The pronoun associated with a gunship is "it", I have no problem referring to people as "it" if that's what it prefers.

No, that person doesn't want to be referred to as "it", he wants to be referred to as Apache helicopter gunship. No what?

Also, what about in languages that don't have "it"?

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#223

Post by atq2119 »

krapp wrote: post #185
ljm wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at both examples, the entire situation is bothersome and, frankly, exhausting. I don't know where people find the energy to fuel all this outrage when there is surely somewhere to meet in the middle. It's difficult to take seriously, and understand the genuine underlying issues, when emotions all around are amplified to the extreme. Campaigning to have someone arrested on one end and employing totalitarian ta…

> Looking at both examples, the whole situation seems like yet another toxic, mind-numbing internet squabble. It really is. There have been hundreds of threads just after Stallman's recent reappointment to the FSF board of directors alone, to say nothing of his "cancellation," many with hundreds if not thousands of comments, most of which are just a cesspool of toxicity, trolling and outrage porn. The truth is that b…

My second favourite conspiracy theory is that a lot of the transgender flame wars are fanned by secret agencies to distract the activist populace from topics that are more important and less convenient for the powerful elite (economic justice comes to mind).

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#224

Post by simion314 »

magicalhippo wrote: post #57
joana035 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are taking his arguments out of context. Everything out of context will sound strange.

Not really. Here's the context: This "child pornography" might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared. Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone, so and if you or I think it is disgusting, that is no excuse for censorship. Having a photo of you out there, shared to people you did not intend or want to have it shared with can most definitely hurt someone. I can't find the quote right now,…

Can you explain how a drawing of imaginary person hurts somebody? What about texts? the characters in some books like the ones used in Game of Thrones TV series are very under aged, do you accuse the readers of the crime ? if yes who was hurt ?

I understand the point about hurting children or adults by the porn industry but I would hope we can find better methods to stop this crimes , social media justice is not the way,,, I read about under cover cops catching soem criminals so let's fund them to do their jobs ... and I also read about some teens killing an old man because someone accused him to be a pedo

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#225

Post by dpatterbee »

insert_coin wrote: post #197
dpatterbee wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you call people by their names? Seems like you're already forced to call people what they want you to. I believe there's a difference between asking people to refer to you by some identifier and whatever nonsense you're equating it to.

You are not forced to call anyone anything. You have no right to compel anyone to say anything. You can ask, that's about it. They can say no.

And they can be considered an asshole and asked to not continue their role as a leading representative of a diverse community of people.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#226

Post by dpatterbee »

insert_coin wrote: post #204
dragonwriter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You try to force RMS to say some words? You mean like “GNU/Linux”? It's really not a big leap from RMS’s thinking he gets to name other people’s things without their consent (and insist that other people folloq his preference) to his thinking he gets to name other people without their consent, and its truly backwards to think that either of those stems from people trying to “force” anything on Stallman.

So, you realize that RMS is wrong on the GNU/Linux thing and somehow are still on the side of forcing pronouns?

It blows my mind that you think that people wishing to be referred to in a certain way that has absolutely 0 negative effects on you or anyone else is somehow a bad thing which you need to argue against so much.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#227

Post by nec4b »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #154
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He clearly states that his opinions are his own, and do not represent GNU, FSF, or anything. The world there your private views might impact your work is a bad one, and everyone who values human rights and democracy must fight to make it safe to express your views.

Assume this: My open, but as a private person, opinion is that it's ok to steal money from my employer. Should I be CEO?

And if you hold the same opinion just not in the open?

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#228

Post by ljm »

atq2119 wrote: post #223
krapp wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looking at both examples, the whole situation seems like yet another toxic, mind-numbing internet squabble. It really is. There have been hundreds of threads just after Stallman's recent reappointment to the FSF board of directors alone, to say nothing of his "cancellation," many with hundreds if not thousands of comments, most of which are just a cesspool of toxicity, trolling and outrage porn. The truth is that b…

My second favourite conspiracy theory is that a lot of the transgender flame wars are fanned by secret agencies to distract the activist populace from topics that are more important and less convenient for the powerful elite (economic justice comes to mind).

The trope of wealthy people standing atop their terrace, drinking and partying, while the poorer people below fight between themselves is a well known one.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#229

Post by johannes1234321 »

sokoloff wrote: post #183
ex3ndr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting from v3 no, thats why many projects are still on GPL v2

Could you expand on that? Suppose there’s a library “foo” licensed under GPL v3 or later. GPLv4 comes out and has a term I don’t like (maybe it says “may not be used by anyone with more than 2 ‘o’s in their name”). Am I not free to use foo under the v3 terms, ignoring “or later”? From the v3 license: Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program specifies that a certain numbered version of the…

You continue to be able to use it under GPLv3 terms, but if you distribute it (and don't hold the full copyright) you must distribute it in a "or newer" compatible way.

Re: A Critique of the Open Letter Calling for the Removal of RMS

#230

Post by sokoloff »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #189
sokoloff wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You added that part afterward in an edit and I was still replying to that part, but you’re right and that’s what rms is encouraging: that we both have the code and both have the freedom to learn, modify, and tinker on it as does anyone we convey the code to.

Only with the consent the author == if my code is GPL, not if I'm copying the code into my proprietary code.

Sure, it’s the L in GPL that gives everyone the right to use GPL code in their product under certain conditions as spelled out in the license.

Nothing in the license precludes the sale of such a combined work though, as in your devil’s advocate query.

I’m not even sure where the confusion or disagreement is in this sub-thread to be honest. The license is short and fairly clear; there’s ample additional “what does this mean for inclusion of GPL code in commercial products?” FAQs and a fairly large body of commercial products openly marketed which include GPL code in them.

[0] - https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLCommercially

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