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Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

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Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#61

Post by ChainOfFools »

_f9cu wrote: post #46

Structure is the memory. Neuron cells got nothing to do with it. Slime mold has memory, and it doesn't have a neural network.

this seems excessively reductive. by this reasoning we should expect to find that removing neurons from the "structure" has no effect on its capacity for encoding memory.

if one reduces "memory" to anything that exhibits sustained interplay between hysteresis and goal optimization then yes, neurons may lie below the level of explanation you wish to use, and could thus be substituted with some other signaling medium, but this is not the same as claiming they are not involved at all.

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#62

Post by Supermancho »

Robotbeat wrote: post #60
Supermancho wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually, we do fully understand everything about the atomic structure of the hydrogen atom, Not sure where that hubris comes from. There are physical phenomena we have not been able to test, so there will always be unknowns and assumptions based on (abstract) modeling. eg the metallic liquid hydrogen described here https://edu.rsc.org/soundbite/hydrogen-falls-apart-under-pre...

It comes from the unreasonable effectiveness of quantum electrodynamics. That we predicted a metallic state of hydrogen (a sort of molecular, not atomic, structure) under an extreme corner case (extreme pressure) over 80 years ago (well before it could be experimentally verified) just highlights what I mean. And I don’t mean to say that neuroscientists are doing shoddy work. Far from it! The brain is a far more compl…

> That we predicted a metallic state of hydrogen

You're missing the point. The idea that the predictions are the same as knowledge illustrates the misunderstanding. We do not know because we cannot prove it. I shouldn't need to get into the reason we produce experimental evidence eg https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/07/06/ask-... - via the LIGO and Virgo detectors

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#63

Post by d110af5ccf »

Supermancho wrote: post #62
Robotbeat wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It comes from the unreasonable effectiveness of quantum electrodynamics. That we predicted a metallic state of hydrogen (a sort of molecular, not atomic, structure) under an extreme corner case (extreme pressure) over 80 years ago (well before it could be experimentally verified) just highlights what I mean. And I don’t mean to say that neuroscientists are doing shoddy work. Far from it! The brain is a far more compl…

> That we predicted a metallic state of hydrogen You're missing the point. The idea that the predictions are the same as knowledge illustrates the misunderstanding. We do not know because we cannot prove it. I shouldn't need to get into the reason we produce experimental evidence eg https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/07/06/ask-... - via the LIGO and Virgo detectors

@Robotbeat isn't the one missing the point here. The incredible accuracy of those predictions serves as a testament to just how well we do understand that particular phenomenon. Now compare to neuroscience, where we struggle to accurately make (by comparison) the most basic of predictions.

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#64

Post by d110af5ccf »

erikerikson wrote: post #56
hans1729 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that the line between software and hardware isn't as clear in neuro as someone with an IT background would like to think, specifically because the electro-chemical activities going on are both, hard and soft, at the same time. This isn't some abstract process running on a biological computer, the biological computer is the sum of the processes that constitute itself. (That's the fascinating thing about bio)…

I have a background in both. Both are implemented in physical mediums. The gating and current flow are similarly physical as are magnetic field changes on disk mediums. There is a greater diversity in the brain which uses field effects ala hormones, ion movement, transmitter diffusion, and direct electrical connection. The physical/informational duality is present in both so I would suggest that the building out of t…

> The physical/informational duality is present in both

A very important distinction is that a computer has clean separation between physical data representation (magnetic bits) and physical device implementation (transistors & etc). As an analogy to a biological system I'd suggest an FPGA running a self modifying program that's also reconfiguring the FPGA on the fly. No sane engineer would design such a system (I hope).

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#65

Post by monocasa »

Robotbeat wrote: post #57
msarchet wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet I can speak concretely about a hydrogen atom You can talk about some abstractions about how a hydrogen atom works, but we don't fully understand everything about atomic structure. We don't know if there is something that makes up the structures of subatomic particles becuase we don't have particle accelerators that have enough energy for us to peer deeper into what quarks are made up of. We don't even know…

Actually, we do fully understand everything about the atomic structure of the hydrogen atom, everything relevant to chemistry and how life (for instance) works. If we have not yet unified the fundamental forces, that doesn't mean we don't have an INCREDIBLY detailed and complete understanding of the hydrogen atom. Corner cases in several layers lower than chemistry vs not even really knowing where a memory is stored!

Quantum chemistry is a field with a lot of unknowns still. To say that chemistry has a complete understanding of the hydrogen atom is inaccurate.

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#66

Post by Supermancho »

d110af5ccf wrote: post #63
Supermancho wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That we predicted a metallic state of hydrogen You're missing the point. The idea that the predictions are the same as knowledge illustrates the misunderstanding. We do not know because we cannot prove it. I shouldn't need to get into the reason we produce experimental evidence eg https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/07/06/ask-... - via the LIGO and Virgo detectors

@Robotbeat isn't the one missing the point here. The incredible accuracy of those predictions serves as a testament to just how well we do understand that particular phenomenon. Now compare to neuroscience, where we struggle to accurately make (by comparison) the most basic of predictions.

> Now compare to neuroscience, where we struggle to accurately make (by comparison) the most basic of predictions.

I'm not addressing the hand wavy nature of the article, which is self-evident. This is irrelevant to the point being discussed.

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#67

Post by WaltPurvis »

I experienced an episode of transient global amnesia [1] a couple of years ago. It lasted for 6-7 hours, during which I was transported to the hospital, but every 2-3 minutes I would ask anew "Why am I in the hospital?" — having no memory at all of being there. I still have no clue what might have caused it. I mean, scientists don't have a clue what causes it, only a wide range of speculated causes, none of which really applied to me.

Since there's no known way to prevent TGA, no treatment, and apparently no lasting damage, it has never (AFAIK) been researched, certainly not researched much, but it strikes me as the kind of thing that should be studied. If scientists could figure out how memory formation is completely blocked in episodes of TGA, it seems like that would provide useful data about how memory formation normally works.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_global_amnesia

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#68

Post by d110af5ccf »

throwanem wrote: post #9
supernova87a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reading the abstract, is it me, or did the authors revel in spewing a ridiculous amount of jargon instead of using the opportunity to give a simple and clear statement of the fundamental finding of the work to a general scientific audience? "The epigenome and three-dimensional (3D) genomic architecture are emerging as key factors in the dynamic regulation of different transcriptional programs required for neuron…

It's you. This paper describes a process significantly more complex than the static molecular structure of DNA, and its abstract is written for the audience of researchers sharing the authors' own specialism. That's actually more useful than the converse, because it enables members of that audience quickly to evaluate the contents for relevance to their own work, in a way that would be much more difficult, perhaps im…

Seconding this. The abstract reads as incredibly well written and clear to me. The technical terms are relevant and appropriately used. I don't see anything I would describe as reveling in jargon, though I have definitely come across such papers before.

I really don't understand why a non-expert would expect experts who are writing for other experts to dumb things down for them. You might as well complain that a graduate level physics textbook isn't readily understandable to someone with no mathematical background!

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#69

Post by mattkrause »

cblconfederate wrote: post #28
culopatin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people need something to talk about and universities benefit from the publicity perhaps?

well people don't know what they re talking about when it's about so specialized basic research. Universities do benefit from the publicity , but it feels like selling snake oil to naive people.

It's not really meant for "naive people": nobody expects you to change your behavior as a result of this press release.

The target audience is really science journalists on EurekaWire. They're hoping this press release will get picked up by a science writer for the New York Times or Scientific American, etc.

A parallel goal is to demonstrate that the university is doing cutting edge work, which helps with student enrollment, fundraising, and recruitment. This also applies to the funders: they want to demonstrate that donations (or tax dollars) are being put to good use.

If it directly catches the attention of science aficionados, that's mostly a bonus.

Re: Neuroscientists discover molecular mechanism that allows memories to form (2020)

#70

Post by d110af5ccf »

monocasa wrote: post #65
Robotbeat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, we do fully understand everything about the atomic structure of the hydrogen atom, everything relevant to chemistry and how life (for instance) works. If we have not yet unified the fundamental forces, that doesn't mean we don't have an INCREDIBLY detailed and complete understanding of the hydrogen atom. Corner cases in several layers lower than chemistry vs not even really knowing where a memory is stored!

Quantum chemistry is a field with a lot of unknowns still. To say that chemistry has a complete understanding of the hydrogen atom is inaccurate.

... what?! We can accurately predict hydrogen (and helium!) energy characteristics to _absurd_ accuracy levels. The issue is that even a system as simple as a single helium atom is prohibitively computationally expensive.
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