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“I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

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Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#41

Post by Dylan16807 »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #39
vishnugupta wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (as a manager) always get a push-back when I try to impose my timelines on my team. Though we do have a healthy conversation as a result and we end up uncovering a bunch of unknowns which I then take it to my boss to inform them. When an engineer says they need 4 weeks instead of 2 it's my responsibility as a manager to get into the details, not as a way to micro-manage but to help my team be more confident about t…

Real question: do you actually believe this to be positive more so than negative most of the time? Many people will feel resentment over what is essentially continuous doubt and having to spend time to push back that could be spent thinking about the problem, diving in and making a better idea later. Additionally, your way of presenting the argument seems harmless and emotionless, yet reality is often far away from t…

While having the discussion could definitely be unpleasant and cause problems depending on how it goes, "having to spend time to push back that could be spent thinking about the problem" is a bit much. Half an hour isn't going to affect the deadline. The odds of "making a better idea later" aren't going to change significantly, either.

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#42

Post by collyw »

halayli wrote: post #9

imo, the problem with estimates vs reality is that estimates don't include mental state. And just to clarify more about mental state, I am referring to being in the zone / flow, and individuals are healthy and experience normal stress / happiness levels. We assume and expect consistent productivity from ourselves. Anecdotally, In my 20 yrs experience, I've never heard a software engineer saying to their manager "add…

I am sure many people are like me in that there are constant meetings, questions and other interruptions to the point that you never actually get into the "zone".

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#43

Post by sildur »

halayli wrote: post #9

imo, the problem with estimates vs reality is that estimates don't include mental state. And just to clarify more about mental state, I am referring to being in the zone / flow, and individuals are healthy and experience normal stress / happiness levels. We assume and expect consistent productivity from ourselves. Anecdotally, In my 20 yrs experience, I've never heard a software engineer saying to their manager "add…

Huge thanks for talking about that. I thought I was the only one. I'm really unproductive when I have budget issues, can't stop thinking about it.

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#44

Post by TeMPOraL »

halayli wrote: post #9

imo, the problem with estimates vs reality is that estimates don't include mental state. And just to clarify more about mental state, I am referring to being in the zone / flow, and individuals are healthy and experience normal stress / happiness levels. We assume and expect consistent productivity from ourselves. Anecdotally, In my 20 yrs experience, I've never heard a software engineer saying to their manager "add…

I strongly agree with your comment, with a single caveat:

> You wouldn't see this being a problem in careers like HR/Management/Sales. Because an individual can still be somehow productive without being in the zone.

I think it could actually be the other way around. That kind of work is very conductive to be "in the zone". In my few attempts at managing groups of people, I've learned that the work that's easiest to give you the state of flow is one where "next actions" are always obvious, and you get rapid feedback. Work where you can - and often should - substitute moving forward for thinking things through. Work where thinking gets distributed, outsourced to group interaction. That is sales and management, and I imagine lots of HR also.

So in a way, I think "people people" are "in the zone" much more often than we are, which is why they may not understand just how hard it is to get there when your tasks are brick walls requiring intense concentration.

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#45

Post by rytis »

tpoacher wrote: post #15

Honest question. Say you have a project. Your boss expects it can be done in two weeks. Let's say you are good at estimating your own velocity, and you estimate four weeks for that project. Do you: a) Tell your boss that you effectively suck and it will take you 4 weeks instead of 2? b) Tell your boss it will take two weeks and then blame delays when the deadline passes? or c) Tell your boss it will take two weeks, t…

Usually this has a tendency to propagate, in my experience. The deadlines come from above and/or externally dictated. So even if you have balls to say a), your boss (or your boss' boss, etc) may not, or they might have different agenda, that has nothing to do with the quality of the deliverables.

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#46

Post by tremon »

tpoacher wrote: post #15

Honest question. Say you have a project. Your boss expects it can be done in two weeks. Let's say you are good at estimating your own velocity, and you estimate four weeks for that project. Do you: a) Tell your boss that you effectively suck and it will take you 4 weeks instead of 2? b) Tell your boss it will take two weeks and then blame delays when the deadline passes? or c) Tell your boss it will take two weeks, t…

Tell your boss that you effectively suck and it will take you 4 weeks instead of 2?

No, I tell my boss that he sucks and it will take me 4 weeks instead of 2.

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#47

Post by pmiller2 »

zepolen wrote: post #19
tpoacher wrote: post #15

Honest question. Say you have a project. Your boss expects it can be done in two weeks. Let's say you are good at estimating your own velocity, and you estimate four weeks for that project. Do you: a) Tell your boss that you effectively suck and it will take you 4 weeks instead of 2? b) Tell your boss it will take two weeks and then blame delays when the deadline passes? or c) Tell your boss it will take two weeks, t…

d) Tell your boss it will take 6 weeks, deliver in 4

I see you're from the Montgomery Scott school of estimation.

Re: “I’ll Finish It This Week” and Other Lies

#49

Post by KSteffensen »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #39
vishnugupta wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (as a manager) always get a push-back when I try to impose my timelines on my team. Though we do have a healthy conversation as a result and we end up uncovering a bunch of unknowns which I then take it to my boss to inform them. When an engineer says they need 4 weeks instead of 2 it's my responsibility as a manager to get into the details, not as a way to micro-manage but to help my team be more confident about t…

Real question: do you actually believe this to be positive more so than negative most of the time? Many people will feel resentment over what is essentially continuous doubt and having to spend time to push back that could be spent thinking about the problem, diving in and making a better idea later. Additionally, your way of presenting the argument seems harmless and emotionless, yet reality is often far away from t…

It's the managers duty to create the trust needed for having a constructive discussion of task breakdowns and timelines. If the engineer is "just saying things to get the managers out of their hair" the manager has failed at this.

You seem to dismiss entirely that doing a proper task breakdown is a way to think about the problem, revealing unknowns, clarifying requirements and making sure as many steps along the way as possible are clear and actionable.

In an ASIC project, if you miss your tape-out deadline, your time to market will be delayed by several months until the fab can find a new slot to fit you in. This can cost many millions of dollars. Accurate development estimates are important.

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