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Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

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21–30 of 227 posts

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#21

How is a "You can't lead an organisation and be a role model if your views hurt a significant amount of people in the organisation" a non-judicial punishment? If you can't read or write you would also probably not lead a large organization, and it's not punishment. Can you rejoin if you have learned reading and writing? Yes. Stallman is not a janitor but in top management (I have the highest respect for janitors but…

As I understand it, it is non judicial because there is no judiciary system involved.

This doesn't imply it's not an irrational action, i.e. you may justifiably avoid a person/thing that is linked with immoral behavior even if there is no sentence (say, avoid bitcoin because of climate issues).

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#22
> In doing this, I believe that the FSF board felt that punishment should have an end, especially in the case of the first punishment, and should include an opportunity for the punished to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior.

That's an entirely reasonable theory. Would the FSF care to confirm it?

How come the FSF hasn't said anything about why Stallman is back on the board - not even an announcement? Why are they just making oblique references as if they're embarrassed by it?

If the entirety of the FSF's statements are a tweet saying that LibrePlanet speakers didn't know about Stallman's "announcement," a statement about "governance," and several resignations, how are they giving an opportunity for Stallman to demonstrate that he has reformed his behavior? Why not put out a simple statement saying that Stallman is back on the board for such-and-such reasons?

Frankly, if you looked only at the FSF's website and not at the rest of the internet, you'd be extremely confused what's going on and why there's a need for "work to improve governance at the FSF."

It'd be great if this were a "learning opportunity" for Stallman, if it admitted the "possibility of reform". The FSF has taken zero steps to make it happen, and they are destabilizing the free software movement all the while.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#24
A well written piece by Perens, but his focus on Stallman's disability leaves the reader to reach the point on their own, which may be difficult for some (perhaps those with similar issues to Stallman).

The point is that people (and corporations) should be more tolerant of the views of others. They are not required to agree, but they should not automatically push the "cancel" button. I don't agree with everything that Stallman believes (for example, GPL3), but I have no desire to shun him.

I will likely be modded down for expressing my next opinion: The same thing applies to those who support(ed) President Donald Trump. There was once a day when most US citizens would respect the office of President even when they did not hold the same views as the occupant. Why is there so much hate for those (47%?) who supported, or still support him and his political philosophies?

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#25
post #16

It seems a copout to blame his behaviour on his Autism. Plenty of people on the spectrum go about daily life without making grandiose public statements about pedophiles or eating toe jam in public - even for an Autistic person it's obvious that this will cause a negative reaction.

Perhaps Larry David should produce a "toe incident" episode. It's ridiculous that people continue to bring that up due to lack of real material. I suspect there's more than one type of autism, in Stallman's case it seems that he has no filter at all and always speaks the truth (i.e. what he really thinks). Give a neurotypical person a truth serum and you might be surprised. And you'll have more material that the 10 p…

>It's ridiculous that people continue to bring that up due to lack of real material.

That's an indicator that there are no real material. Or the source of his mistreatment of women being the "And hot girls" sticker on his office, that some intern placed to make a joke.

Look the people that denounce him. All corporate lobbyists. This looks to me like a political move to eliminate an uncomfortable stone in the road to total control of software.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#26

> Thus, they are bound by the Americans with Disability Act and other applicable law to make accommodations for a handicapped employee. Does ADA require an airline to employ a blind pilot? Besides allowing his service dog? This essay starts with reason and ends with a slapstick statement equivalent to Walmart being required to keep employing a greeter with (movie cliche type) Tourette’s. There is no defined end to th…

That is a straw man. Stallman has been quite effective in most areas, certainly more than the interim presidents who quickly got very corporate with all the familiar BS language.

We don't need another infiltrated Linux Foundation.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#27
There is a conflict here: on one hand we want diversity, accept people with their differences, their handicap or education. On the other hand we want them to behave the same way we do, otherwise we reject them.

So your company should have people with handicap, but that have no effect on others.

And diverse genders, but you should consider them all the same, even if we know we have diverse bodies, needs and behaviors.

And diverse cultural and religious background, but it should be ignored like if we all agreed on how life works.

Living together do mean we have to live by common rules and try to fit, but you can't have your cake and both way: if you increase diversity, you will increase friction.

If you ask for diversity and you want them to be just like you, think just like you, or act just like you, it's not going to work.

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#28
post #4

Richard Stallman will be punished until the day he dies. And then they will vandalize his grave. All I can do is to try not to commit crimes [1] myself, lest I be similarly removed from employment, stripped of accolade, and banished forever. [1] I'm LGBT and very open and inclusive with everyone (including democrats and republicans), but I seriously worry that eating meat might one day be frowned upon and punished. e…

[flagged]

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#29
post #17

RMS is abusive. I'm autistic too. When I've behaved in similar ways, I've been similarly forced to account for my behavior. I resent the fact that ostensible defense of him as a person on the spectrum is so ideological. I distrust most of his defenders' sincerity when they talk about his neurodivergence, and I don't consider them allies.

You clearly are not an expert on autism. The disease is a huge spectrum of different behaviors, from almost normal, to severe retardation. I've seen RMS in real life, he's borderline can't take care of himself, that's not being abusive.

I've met RMS in real life and talked to him on multiple occasions. He can absolutely take care of himself and it's a little insulting to RMS to say that he can't. (Who took care of him between when he left his job at MIT and when the FSF got enough funding to hire him an assistant, if he wasn't taking care of himself?)

Re: Bruce Perens: On Non-Judicical Punishment of Individuals

#30
I don't think this argument makes sense. In fact if we follow it to its conclusion, it's an additional reason for RMS to be removed from his job.

1. RMS is not being punished by the FSF.

He does not have any right to a particular job, even as the founder of an organization. Many people, including FSF board members, believed he was not competent to serve the organization in a leadership role.

One could argue about whether getting excoriated on social media is a "non-judicial punishment". Perens seems to be decrying a rush to judgment, contrasting it with jury duty. But the most damning criticism is coming from people who worked with RMS closely, and who for years even shielded him from the consequences of his own actions. These people have thought long and hard about their experiences.

2. RMS is not obviously asking for any understanding nor promising to be better.

RMS has publicly described himself as having autistic characteristics. He seems to be saying he's sub-clinical. But, if he believes that this is the source of his difficulties, this is a private matter between him and his employer. So, our ability to judge here is limited.

However, at least from public statements, he does not seem to be invoking that defense, or asking for understanding. In fact, he doesn't seem to be even interested in any harms he has caused. Surely this would be step one?

Perens may well believe that RMS' problem is autism. But it matters what RMS believes and does. If he really has a disability but is denying it has any impact, this is even more of a reason to remove him.

3. Frankly this entire argument does such a disservice to the many men and women who live with autism/Asperger's Syndrome. A lot of them do struggle with norms. But they also feel bad when they inadvertently cause others pain. And most of them find a modus vivendi with others. This seems very unlike how RMS' interactions have been described, including to me by people who've worked with him, and what I've also personally seen at public events.

4. Personally it makes me very sad that we're having this argument. I don't take any pleasure in seeing RMS removed from a position of honor. I think he's one of the greatest thinkers of his time, and documents like "The Right to Read" ought to be in textbooks. There ought to be a place for RMS in our discourse. Just not this one.

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