Live data from Hacker News

Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

301–310 of 965 posts

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#301

Judge William Alsup learned to code for this case, and was therefore able to avoid a lot of the BS being peddled around the significance of some of the code: > The argument centered on a function called rangeCheck. ... It was in Oracle’s interest to play up the significance of rangeCheck as much as possible, and David Boies, Oracle’s lawyer, began to argue that Google had copied rangeCheck so that it could take Andro…

I just took a look at the rangeCheck:

https://majadhondt.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/googles-9-lines/

Is this example correct? Can someone explain to me how this: if (toIndex > arrayLen)

is correct?

If the array length is say 5, and toIndex is 5, that should still throw an index out of bounds exception, right? But it would be acceptable here.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#302
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unfamiliar with the legal system (judicial system?). I had thought that the jury's findings were final. Am I understanding correctly that the case still went to the Supreme Court of the US, and now that court finds in favor of Google. What happens after this, more appeals or is this like a proper static const readonly final?

You understand correctly. The jury's decision isn't final (and I thought this was ruled on by a judge directly, instead of a jury, but I could be wrong). You can appeal pretty much any case to a higher court. I don't know the order, but it's not uncommon for cases to appeal to a higher court several times. I.e. a verdict is rendered in a county court; you don't like it, so you appeal to the state court. State court s…

> The jury's decision isn't final (and I thought this was ruled on by a judge directly, instead of a jury, but I could be wrong).

The idealized rule is that the jury is the final arbitrator of matters of fact, while judges (and appeal courts) decide matters of law. Ideals don't match reality cleanly, especially on matters like fair use which is "mixed fact and law." But additionally, you can sometimes appeal matters of fact by arguing that no reasonable jury could have reached the facts as it did (these are very rare, as I understand it, except in situations where mixed fact/law comes into play).

Some other points you're missing. First, you have to appeal on particular failures of law; you can't just appeal that you don't like the decision. In particular, if you try to appeal past the appeal court to a higher court, you can only make arguments that you made to the appeal court.

Another important thing is that appeal courts can push the case back down to the lower court to redecide based on clarifying law. That's what happened here, essentially. Google won on the trial, Oracle appealed saying that the judge incorrectly ruled that the API wasn't copyrightable (and the appeal court agreed with Oracle), which told the lower court to try it again with the correct ruling on API copyrightable. Google tried to appeal SCOTUS, who refused to hear it. Lower court had another jury trial, which found Google had fair use. Oracle appealed again to appeals court, which found that the jury couldn't have thought it fair use. Google appealed to SCOTUS, which just now disagreed with the appeal court.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#303
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bad things would have happened? This ruling specifically says that it was fair use, not that APIs are copyrightable - which seems to be the buggy man. As it currently stands, APIs absolutely fall under copyright laws.

What bad things would have happened? It would have become MUCH more dangerous to provide an alternate implementation of someone else's library or interface, which I believe would have have a profoundly negative effect on the entire software industry. As it currently stands, APIs absolutely fall under copyright laws. Yes, but now there is a very strong precedent establishing the idea that copying those copyrighted API…

IANAL, but it was always true that fair use made code exempt from copyright. Wine is alive specifically because of that.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#304
post #285
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very good summary. This is a case where there probably is no legally "correct" decision based on the law/precedent. It comes down to fair use and to what degree you can reasonably extend it to this case. For most people reading this, the decision is the "right" one. But I'm not sure to what degree one side or the other is better supported as a matter of law/precedent.

I strongly agree with the outcome but the cost in the other direction is good API design is a creative process. If you sit down and design a kick-ass API for a year, another person who re-implements is inheriting that design, and its benefits, for free. I do wonder if another case will wind its way up one day where the defendant lifted the API not for interoperability but because it was a clean or clever interface. (…

Even if that happens, we'll still get beautiful APIs made. Copyright is a means to an end. Fonts, for example, are not subject to copyright, but we still see beautiful typefaces made.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people are acting like this is some victory of open source I don't know that anybody is saying that Google did anything specifically Good or Just or Noble or anything. The celebratory aspect is more based on all the Bad Things that would have happened in the future if this decision had come down in favor of Oracle.

That's literally the next sentence that you intentionally omitted. And I've seen plenty of people paint Oracle as some evil boogeyman like this is some good vs evil struggle. Oracle wasn't trying to make Bad Things happen. They were seeking damages from a damaging situation, and if bad things had happened... I'd blame the patent trolls and judges that enable them. Their insanity continues regardless of the verdict af…

Are you familiar with Oracle's business practices? They are indeed evil.

Google started out with the stated intent to not be evil but now they're allowing that possibly and are making good progress.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas's analysis pretty much starts from the conclusion that Google made billions off of Android, so therefore how could anything it be copied be fair use? He cloaks this analysis somewhat by arguing that the distinction between declaring and implementing code must be meaningless because Congress didn't lay it out explicitly in law, but for the person who actually broached the question of what other factors might in…

He probably owns a bunch of Oracle stock

Justices routinely recuse themselves if they own stock in a company arguing before the court.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#307
The bits where they emphasise that the copying was "transformative" as part of the "Purpose and Character of the Use" analysis are interesting:

« Google’s limited copying of the API is a transformative use. Google copied only what was needed to allow programmers to work in a different computing environment without discarding a portion of a familiar programming language. Google’s purpose was to create a different task-related system for a different computing environment (smartphones) and to create a platform — the Android platform — that would help achieve and popularize that objective. »

« Here Google’s use of the Sun Java API seeks to create new products. It seeks to expand the use and usefulness of Android-based smartphones. Its new product offers programmers a highly creative and innovative tool for a smartphone environment. To the extent that Google used parts of the Sun Java API to create a new platform that could be readily used by programmers, its use was consistent with that creative “progress” that is the basic constitutional objective of copyright itself. »

This suggests to me that someone who copies a set of function declarations for the purposes of, say, creating a free-software clone of an existing product might not be able to rely on this decision.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#308

> "Google copied approximately 11,500 lines of declaring code from the API, which amounts to virtually all the declaring code needed to call up hundreds of different tasks. Those 11,500 lines, however, are only 0.4 percent of the entire API at issue, which consists of 2.86 million total lines. In considering “the amount and substantiality of the portion used” in this case, the 11,500 lines of code should be viewed as…

So if I copy the entire A volume of Encyclopedia Britannica, but leave B-Z alone, I'm good?

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#309
post #245

This seems to change part of the debate on "Extracting the abstract syntax tree from GCC" that happened here recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26590524 Specifically, this thread about copying the readline API: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26606328 Stallman's contention that a judge would look unfavorably on cloning the API signature because it could be viewed as subterfuge...seems very weakened h…

Yeah, but even Stallman's opinion and understanding on the matter has changed over time (that was one of the first GPL enforcement actions). IIRC, FSF was one of the amicus briefs in favor of Google's position. They want to be able to replace proprietary software with compatible, open source clones piece by piece.

In fact a good chunk of the case law cited today hadn't even hit the courts yet at the time Stallman made that statement.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#310
post #6

I'm so relieved. This could have forced such dramatic changes in how we develop software. And any other decision would have been a crippling blow to FLOS software. Now if we only could get the SC to invalidate software patents in general.

This is a large scale defeat of the GPL and dual licensing, so I'm not sure how this could be anything but a sad day for sustainable open source development. If you're big enough and have enough lawyers, there's no reason to license software you want to build on.

I don't see how this case has anything to do with GPL.
Post reply on HN