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I can only think that modern front end development has failed

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Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 100 hasn't been a relevant indicator of modern music since Napster. The top 100 is a record industry owned entity with a tremendous amount of self-interest. If you can't find more diverse modern music than the top 100 offers today you're not trying that hard.

That's neither here, nor there. This is not about being able to find this or that niche musician that's great or even greater than any in the past, but about what the masses listen getting worse. Music isn't just a solitary experience, but also a part of general culture. As streamed music is getting cruder over time, the majority of the people are listening to increasingly shitty songs. That's chilling, regardless of…

It's reductive to suggest that the top 100 represents "general culture" (whatever that ambiguous term means). There aren't solely niche musicians outside of the top 100. Theres plenty of musicians with millions of listens/views on streaming media that don't enter billboard lists that have extremely prodigious careers that have complex lyrics, use a wide assortment of instruments/equipments, evolve genres, etc.

Your data might be objective, but it's still a narrow slice of a much broader ecosystem.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#362
post #329
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

React never claimed performance, and the virtual DOM is quite wasteful. Any direct manipulation library will perform better. Plus, it’s dishonest to look at react core size. react-dom, which is absolutely required, is 40KB minified AND compressed. Plus the usual plugins to handle icons, SVG, animations, and on on. A base React application easily crosses the 200KB gzipped mark.

> React never claimed performance, and the virtual DOM is quite wasteful. Any direct manipulation library will perform better. React's performance (in large part because of it's virtual DOM) over Angular was a common benefit cited in it's rise to fame. Indeed no one ever claimed React was somehow faster than the document API (or even JQuery) and that isn't what I'm saying either. Whether or not you think the virtual…

Being faster and smaller than Angular isn't much of a feat...

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's neither here, nor there. This is not about whether or not this or that particular song is better, is the top (most listened/streamed/talked about) music in general losing variety in all these aspects (harmony, melody, timbre, lyrics, genres, dynamics, etc). That's not subjective, that's objective, and has been measured to get worse. The "subjective experience" could be good, the same way people can prefer McDo…

Again, “worse” is subjective. Even saying someone has “shit taste” is subjective.

In the end, everything is subjective, even morality. There's no objective physical law that says killing is bad. Animals do it all the time and could not care less about it.

But to the degree that we have a culture, though, we also have a non-100%-exact but nonetheless existing hierarchy of artistic works. There might be disagreements, even strong ones, but there's also some general agreement, that not everything is a fuzzy blob of equal value, left for the individual taste to sort or not, and this just for itself.

Is the idea that the Beatles are better than The Monkeys or Oasis, that Aphex Twin is better than Skrillex, that Dua Lipa is better than Justin Bieber, that Michael Jackson is better than Milli Vanilly, in some non-measurable but tangible way really that difficult?

That this, once a common and well accepted idea (related to the idea of the "canon"), appears like beyond the pale for the 21st century solipsistic individual, where only the subjective taste matters, is not really the fault of the idea itself.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#364
Thank god I quit frontEnd, the story was like this:

- 2010: dude look this new thing "angularjs" a model/controller(vue?)/STAR*, the $scope dude it's crazy, something dynamically changes in the $scope and HOPP it appears instantly in the page :D

Few years fast-forward, have a watcher in a model that changes something in another model, unpredictable changes down/up, random mutations...duhh da heck?? We were good sending HTML from the server missing those days...

- 2014: dude look this new thing, it is called "React" and you know what?, forget about the state up/down, down/up and allover the place, the state is ONE DIRECTION with React, and it is backed by Facebook bro.

-(me) Oh yeah? Ok what about the 3 years I spent battling with AngularJS?

- Don't bother bro Google is dropping active development and maintenance of AngularJS, it is either you switch or use their beta Angular 2.

-(me) No, thanks I'll go for React.

- Dudeeee look it is Redux, you dispatch an action, and it takes care of updating the state, and you know what, you can combine it with Redux-thunk to avoid race conditions.

-(me) Wait wuuuut? Race conditions in the front? Feels like it is becoming a game engine bro da heeeeck...

- Brooowww, look dat new baby, VueJs :D

-(me) wait wuuuut? Don't tell me Facebook is letting down active development of React.

- No bro it's just another cool front lib it is really dope, and it's only the V(vue) part of the front taking care of reactively updating the DOM.

-(me) ok but what's new?

- Now you can have a DSL addition in HTML cool stuff like 'v-for' to dynamically hide/show a DOM element without writing any code.

-(me) wait, wuuuuut, this reminds me of something I've seen before, the ng-if AngularJS is coming back with another name? I'm loosing my mind broooo.

- Dudee look its Gatsbyjs, generates a cool static site, but you have to write React and graphql for it

-(me) ok.

- Dudeeeee look svelte is killing them all.

-(me) ok.

- Dudeeeee this one is an absolute killer, nextjs everything is server side rendered, you write your React component you describe the data and the server takes care of building the static html and send it to the client.

-(me) wuuuut? But that's what we were doing back in 2009?

- 2019 duuuuudeeeeee ...

-(me) STFU I quit.

(and since then, I'm happy cloud solution architect)

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#365
I have a feeling that I am supposed to keep this a secret, but if you are tired of broken and slow websites, check out the Gemini protocol as a break from the BS.

It's not going to fix the web or replace it in a lot of cases, but it's nice to have an alternative for some things.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#366
post #357

What upsets and concerns me the most is when I see poorly developed SPA on really important sites. For example, government service application websites. If reddit or nytimes has a bloated, intermittently failing SPA site, that's an annoyance. When it's a form to apply for unemployment, ACA health care, DMV, or other critical services, it's a critical failure. Especially since these services are most often used by exa…

This is a very simplistic characterization of what's happening. First of all, for all the broken websites there are also a lot of websites that are not broken at all. It's also very easy to make a broken website using a completely server-side rendered website, and that actually happens often enough. Second, SPA's decouple frontend and backend in a very strict way, which can bring enormous organizational benefits. Tim…

It kind of freezes up on my phone. Not intolerable but definitely slow.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#367

I'd like to add a bit more nuance. Modern frontend development provides many opportunities for failure. These failures often make their way into production. I, personally, get great results with modern FE development. My users are happy. I am happy. It's all very successful. All the defenders of modern FE development will likely chime in with the same sentiment. I also get great results with C, which arguably provide…

I love modern frontend development. I can build apps that scale easily to hundreds of thousands of users. They are fast where they need to be fast, and building components means complexity lives only where it's needed. Static parts are rendered statically, dynamic parts are rendered dynamically. I can write all code for the entire stack in Javascript. The entire workflow is streamlined in a simple way (webpack really…

There are many reasons why having SPA and rendering your site on the client is a bad idea.

First, you are basically breaking the concept of the web, a collection of documents, not a collection of code that must be executed to get a document. That has many bad effects.

Browsing is slower, you have to download the code of the whole application and wait for it to execute other API calls to the server before the page is usable. That can take a couple of seconds, or even more on slower connections. With the old pages rendered server side not only you didn't have this effect, but also the browser could start to render the page even it was not fully received (since HTML can be parsed streamed). Not everyone has a fast connection available at all time, and it's frustrating when you have only a 2G network available and you cannot do basically anything on the modern internet.

It's less secure, since you are forcing the user to execute some code on its machine just to look at an article in a blog. And JavaScript engines in browsers are one of the most common source of exploits, given their complexity. Also JavaScript can access information that can fingerprint your browser to track you, without particular permissions. Ideally in a sane world most of the websites don't require JavaScript, and the browser would show you a popup to allow the website to execute code (just like they as you access to the camera).

It breaks any other tools that are not a browser. In the old days you could download with wget entire sites on your hard driver to consult them offline, with "modern" SPA is impossible. Of course that implies that it breaks things like the Wayback machine and thus history is not preserved. And serach engines penalizes sites that are not a clean static HTML.

It's also less accessible, since most SPA don't respect the semantic of HTML, everything is a div in a div in a div. And of course you still need a browser, while with HTML documents you could process them with any software (why a blind person need to render the page in a browser? While a screen reader could have simply parsed the HTML of the page without rendering it on screen...). It breaks navigation in browser, the back button no longer works as you expect, reloading a page could have strange effects, and so on. I can't reliably look at the address bar to know the page I'm in.

Finally it's less robust. SPA are a single point of failure. If anything goes wrong the whole site stops working. While a bug on a page on a classical server side rendered website breaks only that particular page. Also error handling is not present on most SPA, for example what happens if an HTTP request fails? Who knows. Look at submitting a form, most of the time there is no feedback. On a classical server side rendered application if I submit a form I either get a response from the server, or the browser informs me that request had failed and I can submit the form again.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#368
post #360
post #47

HN seems to be pretty split on this issue. I concur with the linked tweet. Using the web beyond very simple pages like HN feels like wading through garbage. Everything is slow, laggy, loads ridiculous amounts of stuff (I live in a country where traffic is very expensive at the moment, so this becomes more noticeable). Things are also flaky and need reloading whenever they get into broken states. The only way I use th…

I built a side project recently using Django/Hotwire. There's some JS, sure, but it's used where appropriate (media API stuff basically). Lighthouse gives 100% accessibility and best practices scores and performance comes in at over 90% on a good day, with performance issues mostly fixed with some database indexing and caching here and there (it runs on a single shoestring Digital Ocean droplet, so it's never going t…

I was thinking about starting Django + Hotwire project myself but I'd like to see some examples first. Is your side project open sourced?

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#369
post #366
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very simplistic characterization of what's happening. First of all, for all the broken websites there are also a lot of websites that are not broken at all. It's also very easy to make a broken website using a completely server-side rendered website, and that actually happens often enough. Second, SPA's decouple frontend and backend in a very strict way, which can bring enormous organizational benefits. Tim…

It kind of freezes up on my phone. Not intolerable but definitely slow.

It loads instantly on my Xr.

Re: I can only think that modern front end development has failed

#370
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built a side project recently using Django/Hotwire. There's some JS, sure, but it's used where appropriate (media API stuff basically). Lighthouse gives 100% accessibility and best practices scores and performance comes in at over 90% on a good day, with performance issues mostly fixed with some database indexing and caching here and there (it runs on a single shoestring Digital Ocean droplet, so it's never going t…

I was thinking about starting Django + Hotwire project myself but I'd like to see some examples first. Is your side project open sourced?

Yes: https://github.com/danjac/audiotrails
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