The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption • Hacker News Board

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#11

Post by PaulKeeble » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

asddubs wrote: post #7

CraigJPerry wrote: post #4

>> One industry source who has spoken with government figures is skeptical that such a radical scenario will come to pass And yet the Investigatory Powers Act[1] passed into law in the UK and has never been repealed. We haven't seen a headline like "local ambulance chief spied on my wife's porn browsing habits" so far but I do wonder if there have been any abuses by now? [1] That's the law which allows people like yo…

i assume in days of https, most of the history they would be able to obtain are only domain names, not specific URLs, right?

Hence the desire to backdoor all encryption to see the full juicy details. Also the reason DNS over HTTPS exists and is spreading.

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#12

Post by patrickaljord » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

MikeUt wrote: post #9

oytis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue connecting child abusers is a pretty niche market.

And enabling child abusers is even more niche, yet houses are still sold without built-in surveillance cameras, that would let law enforcement look at the recording of what you were doing (with a warrant, of course!) But as it stands, private houses are warrant-proof places where anything can happen.

https://www.wired.com/2011/05/warrantless-house-search/

> yet houses are still sold without built-in surveillance cameras, that would let law enforcement look at the recording of what you were doing (with a warrant, of course!)

yet, but it could come. I can imagine offline AI detector that spies on you 24/7 in your house and only sends footage when it detects something illegal so the police wouldn't do the monitoring. I could see plenty of people being ok with that specially if it's advertised as a good way to proof your innocence.

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#13

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

asddubs wrote: post #7

CraigJPerry wrote: post #4

>> One industry source who has spoken with government figures is skeptical that such a radical scenario will come to pass And yet the Investigatory Powers Act[1] passed into law in the UK and has never been repealed. We haven't seen a headline like "local ambulance chief spied on my wife's porn browsing habits" so far but I do wonder if there have been any abuses by now? [1] That's the law which allows people like yo…

i assume in days of https, most of the history they would be able to obtain are only domain names, not specific URLs, right?

Except if you have a root certificate, then you can MITM you heart away. Which govs probably have.

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#14

Post by Lev1a » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

It's always either "Think of the children!" or "X will only be used to investigate the most serious of crimes like terrorism, rape and murder" which shortly afterwards is then (quietly) forgotten about when something like browsing history etc. can be downloaded by basically anyone in government(s).

Maybe there is a restriction snort where such an action requires a warrant but considering that "judges" and "courts" for that (like that infamous US secret court, seriously WTAF) are basically rubber-stamping enthusiasts, it's not actually a restriction and just compromises end user privacy and (online) information security.

"Backdooring E2E encryption"/"Private key escrow" are some other examples of unrealistic and ultimately harmful things called for by technologically inept, old people who inexplicably have been granted the power to devise laws that will most likely only show their full effects years or decades down the line when most of those legislators are either already dead or don't have to worry about the consequences of such legislation anyway ("I don't even use a computer, what do I care? The internet is just full of criminals anyway." quote from my 80-something grandmother). In German there is a nice idiom for that kind of thought pattern: "Nach mir die Sintflut" (something like "After me, the flood/deluge" from what I could find). At the same time these old people and their accomplices - indoctrinated middle-aged people - try to stem the flow of young people into politics if their ideologies do not align with the elderly agenda by e.g. accusing them of trying to oppose the protection of children or something equally effective in the mass media (via the excuses mentioned above).

It's all just so fucked up...

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#15

Post by Lev1a » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #12

MikeUt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And enabling child abusers is even more niche, yet houses are still sold without built-in surveillance cameras, that would let law enforcement look at the recording of what you were doing (with a warrant, of course!) But as it stands, private houses are warrant-proof places where anything can happen.

https://www.wired.com/2011/05/warrantless-house-search/ > yet houses are still sold without built-in surveillance cameras, that would let law enforcement look at the recording of what you were doing (with a warrant, of course!) yet, but it could come. I can imagine offline AI detector that spies on you 24/7 in your house and only sends footage when it detects something illegal so the police wouldn't do the monitoring…

I mean... people are already dumb and security-blind enough to willingly implant surveillance bugs into their homes (Alexa, Google Home, un-neutered smart TVs etc.). Just because these are manufactured and controlled by the private sector doesn't mean it's not just a stepping stone for some kind of mandated surveillance equipment installed into homes in future.

No. Thanks.

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#16

Post by danarmak » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #10

oytis wrote: post #3

"... and asking for stricter regulation of the technology" Like, stricter regulation of mathematics?

France actually banned non approved use of encryption algorithms/math in the 90s so there's some precedence. https://www.theregister.com/1999/01/15/france_to_end_severe_...

Governments that issue patents on math/algorithms/software already claim the power to forbid you to use them. They just need to patent all public encryption algorithms, in perpetuity.

(Sarcastic? Who knows?)

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#17

Post by jariel » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

CraigJPerry wrote: post #4

>> One industry source who has spoken with government figures is skeptical that such a radical scenario will come to pass And yet the Investigatory Powers Act[1] passed into law in the UK and has never been repealed. We haven't seen a headline like "local ambulance chief spied on my wife's porn browsing habits" so far but I do wonder if there have been any abuses by now? [1] That's the law which allows people like yo…

Getting a warrant to spy on your neighbours wife would be like robbing a bank and leaving a note for the cops.

It's literally a crime done right in front of the police, with official records and signatures for you to be prosecuted.

The Justice system has all sorts of power. A cop can arrest you, right now, for no reason at all - which is totally against the law, but he could do it, you'd have to file a redress and hopefully they'd be charged.

So the issue isn't really about encryption, it's about the integrity of our systems.

We'll get 10x further by improving processes than otherwise.

Technology can help, but it's secondary.

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#18

Post by Lammy » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

Do UK and the four other Eyes play musical chairs or something to decide which of them takes a turn attacking privacy and confidentiality online? Sneaky headline wants me to think of them in a vacuum.

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#19

Post by asddubs » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #13

asddubs wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i assume in days of https, most of the history they would be able to obtain are only domain names, not specific URLs, right?

Except if you have a root certificate, then you can MITM you heart away. Which govs probably have.

yes, but it'd be the ISPs storing the internet history

Re: The UK Is Trying to Stop Facebook's End-to-End Encryption

#20

Post by intricatedetail » Sun, Apr 04, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #17

CraigJPerry wrote: post #4

>> One industry source who has spoken with government figures is skeptical that such a radical scenario will come to pass And yet the Investigatory Powers Act[1] passed into law in the UK and has never been repealed. We haven't seen a headline like "local ambulance chief spied on my wife's porn browsing habits" so far but I do wonder if there have been any abuses by now? [1] That's the law which allows people like yo…

Getting a warrant to spy on your neighbours wife would be like robbing a bank and leaving a note for the cops. It's literally a crime done right in front of the police, with official records and signatures for you to be prosecuted. The Justice system has all sorts of power. A cop can arrest you, right now, for no reason at all - which is totally against the law, but he could do it, you'd have to file a redress and ho…

This all only works in theory. In reality police in the UK is mostly useless if you tried to report a crime. They won't touch anything unless it gets them PR points or you present all evidence, track the perpetrators and so on and still they may drop it because the judge wouldn't give them time so why bother. It's a problem that media don't talk about.