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Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

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Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#61

Post by lmarcos »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #42
bckr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that will be used by shrill persons to claim censorship, etc, etc. However, I claim that the profession of certain opinions should make it impossible to make a living. EDIT: for certain values of "profess", which I'll expand as "go around telling everyone you frequently converse with"

I remember the days, just 15 years or so ago on Slashdot, people from a similar community as ours would have in their signature the quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder how things changed so quickly and where this may lead us...

> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Paradox: if I say: "I don't want freedom of speech for anybody but myself". Why would anyone defend my point of view?

I don't think all ideas are defendable, but then I cannot make a list of what ideas deserve to be defended are what not: this always seemed to me like the notion of love (you don't know how to define it, besides the chemical reactions in our body, you don't know how it got into you, but you'll know when it happens to you).

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#62

Post by jokethrowaway »

sneak wrote: post #58
raffraffraff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but when somebody has an unpopular opinion that is "wrong", silencing them isn't the way to change their minds. The best thing in the whole world is hearing a debate between two people, and having your mind change as a result of the arguments given.

Declining to continue to employ someone, or be associated with them in public, is not silencing them.

Exactly, that's discrimination on the grounds of political views.

Congratulations, you're against European human rights and against the law of some US states.

For the records, even if you hold this opinion, I personally wouldn't care and I would hire you based on how you perform at the interview (or keep you hired if you're an employe of mine). I definitely wouldn't associate with you in public, though (nothing personal, I just don't share your values) - and that's my right.

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#63

Post by prvc »

atoav wrote: post #49
UweSchmidt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the days, just 15 years or so ago on Slashdot, people from a similar community as ours would have in their signature the quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder how things changed so quickly and where this may lead us...

As someone who grew up in a right wing province of southern Austria with neo nazis (and old original nazis) nextdoors I can tell you precisely what changed. Fighting for the other persons right to speak their thought is a good and noble thing as long as the other person doesn't fight against your right to say what you like and as long as their words don't turn into actions. The more of this happens the more tolerance…

>as soon as you step over the line and violate other peoples rights

What specific right is it that could be impinged by someone else's speech act?

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#64

Post by axguscbklp »

atoav wrote: post #49
UweSchmidt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the days, just 15 years or so ago on Slashdot, people from a similar community as ours would have in their signature the quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder how things changed so quickly and where this may lead us...

As someone who grew up in a right wing province of southern Austria with neo nazis (and old original nazis) nextdoors I can tell you precisely what changed. Fighting for the other persons right to speak their thought is a good and noble thing as long as the other person doesn't fight against your right to say what you like and as long as their words don't turn into actions. The more of this happens the more tolerance…

>Fighting for the other persons right to speak their thought is a good and noble thing as long as the other person doesn't fight against your right to say what you like and as long as their words don't turn into actions.

>People got killed, people got attacked, people got their rights violated in many ways based on that speech.

Do you apply this logic to also justify being intolerant to anti-liberal, hate-filled, and potentially violence-provoking speech that comes from the left?

Also: how do you feel about possible harm that comes to people as a result of speech not being tolerated? For example, if openly saying that some demographics are on average more violent than others makes the people who say it unemployable, then some people probably will get injured or killed because out of ignorance, they fail to take precautions that they would have taken had speech been more tolerated.

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#65

Post by jokethrowaway »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #42
bckr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that will be used by shrill persons to claim censorship, etc, etc. However, I claim that the profession of certain opinions should make it impossible to make a living. EDIT: for certain values of "profess", which I'll expand as "go around telling everyone you frequently converse with"

I remember the days, just 15 years or so ago on Slashdot, people from a similar community as ours would have in their signature the quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder how things changed so quickly and where this may lead us...

I blame the education system, the government and other authoritarian institutions which instill in young people weakness and a constant need to appeal to authority.

Young people seems to believe freedom is a solved problem - something you memorised in history class - and are blind to the evil authoritarian regimes of our times (like China, North Korea, Cuba): they don't realise we're one step away from those realities and edging closer every day.

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#66

Post by oblio »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #65
UweSchmidt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the days, just 15 years or so ago on Slashdot, people from a similar community as ours would have in their signature the quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder how things changed so quickly and where this may lead us...

I blame the education system, the government and other authoritarian institutions which instill in young people weakness and a constant need to appeal to authority. Young people seems to believe freedom is a solved problem - something you memorised in history class - and are blind to the evil authoritarian regimes of our times (like China, North Korea, Cuba): they don't realise we're one step away from those realitie…

> China, North Korea, Cuba

Freedom is not a solved problem, but your examples don't help your cause as much as you think.

None of those countries ever had anything close to a working democracy. Or a large middle class, for that matter.

And in the developed democracies another lesson has been forgotten: prosperity beats freedom/liberty. Empty bellies don't care how they get filled, be it from a dictator's hand or from a well paid job in a market economy functioning under the rule of law of a democracy.

That's what's eroding democracy. The hollowing out of the middle class. Not "freeze peach", though that part having issues isn't helping either.

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#67

Post by oblio »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #62
sneak wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Declining to continue to employ someone, or be associated with them in public, is not silencing them.

Exactly, that's discrimination on the grounds of political views. Congratulations, you're against European human rights and against the law of some US states. For the records, even if you hold this opinion, I personally wouldn't care and I would hire you based on how you perform at the interview (or keep you hired if you're an employe of mine). I definitely wouldn't associate with you in public, though (nothing perso…

> Congratulations, you're against European human rights and against the law of some US states.

Possibly, BUT, if you can prove that a certain employee holding a position causes brand damage and financial losses, I think they can still not hire you, nobody can force them to do that.

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#68

Post by jokethrowaway »

atoav wrote: post #49
UweSchmidt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the days, just 15 years or so ago on Slashdot, people from a similar community as ours would have in their signature the quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I wonder how things changed so quickly and where this may lead us...

As someone who grew up in a right wing province of southern Austria with neo nazis (and old original nazis) nextdoors I can tell you precisely what changed. Fighting for the other persons right to speak their thought is a good and noble thing as long as the other person doesn't fight against your right to say what you like and as long as their words don't turn into actions. The more of this happens the more tolerance…

We already know how to solve that problem. Freedom of speech doesn't cover violent threats. There is no need for hate speech regulations.

Jihadism is not covered by free speech, nazism is not covered by free speech but racism is covered by free speech.

You also seem to conflate jihadists with muslims - that's not the case.

Jihadists are terrorists and they want war, other muslims integrate with other societies.

There is definitely a point to be made that Islam may employ a long term strategy of integration followed by politically controlling an entire country once they reach a majority (which could start happening in Europe in 50 years or so). That could be seen as a non-violent jihad (pardon the oxymoron), but that's a scenario that would be perfectly legal and not violent. Written or unwritten constitutions in western countries should be able to protect religious freedom even in such an event - or maybe countries will decide to change and become stricter in the religions they allow (whether by becoming islamic or anti-islamic).

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#69

Post by gameswithgo »

raffraffraff wrote: post #57
llaolleh wrote: post #28

I love Bertrand Russell's writing style. His piece on writing is a must read: http://personal.kent.edu/~rmuhamma/Philosophy/RBwritings/how... He translates this: "Human beings are completely exempt from undesirable behaviour-patterns only when certain prerequisites, not satisfied except in a small percentage of actual cases, have, through some fortuitous concourse of favourable circumstances, whether congenital or en…

I think that philosophers like Judith Butler write impenetrable prose to sound intelligent and to make it almost impossible to argue against their positions. Anything worth saying can be said simply.

and jordan peterson. I wish I knew if it was intentional and for what reasons or if they just think that way.

Re: Bertrand Russell Is the Pope (2010)

#70

Post by rwnspace »

llaolleh wrote: post #28

I love Bertrand Russell's writing style. His piece on writing is a must read: http://personal.kent.edu/~rmuhamma/Philosophy/RBwritings/how... He translates this: "Human beings are completely exempt from undesirable behaviour-patterns only when certain prerequisites, not satisfied except in a small percentage of actual cases, have, through some fortuitous concourse of favourable circumstances, whether congenital or en…

> He gave me various simple rules, of which 1 remember only two: "Put a comma every four words", and "never use 'and' except at the beginning of a sentence".

And some wit to boot!

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