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Advice From An Old Programmer

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#211

Post by hackinthebochs »

nightski wrote: post #140
ghotli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point of his article. I believe Zed has shown that his mind is perfectly capable of seeing and processing the macro picture. Whether that be language theory, software engineering, or whatever he puts his energies towards. I may not agree with some of his opinions but the volume and quality of his output is indeed impressive. Haskell's type system _is_ complex, but so are most things that are looked upo…

I hate the tool argument. Programming languages are as much a tool as mathematics or English. I think of them more as a method of communication, a way to express your thoughts and ideas. Not only that but they are executable and unambiguous (most of the time heh). A programming language not only has the power to allow you to express your thoughts, but even to even shape them. The power of this field is in its infancy…

I appreciate your comment. I tend to have a lot of sympathy for the "programming as a tool" argument and forget the potential that programming languages ultimately have. Programming languages, just like any language, are a means of communicating ideas. As this becomes easier and more expressive it will revolutionize the field, many times over.

I think the real problem is that most languages that are made these days are just minuscule iterations over whats currently available. From that perspective there is little to no value in keeping up with whatever monstrosity some overeager researcher squeezes out of their head. But completely new paradigms, or new ways of doing old things, certain have much value; to the programmer learning it and to advancing the field.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#212

Post by MrMan »

joebadmo wrote: post #206
niels_olson wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if we were standing around at an artist's gallery opening, or at a home having dinner and discussion, or just walking down the sidewalk in the flesh-and-blood world, that comment would have been considered a small, but useful and positive contribution to the discussion. In fact, you'd probably know that F_J_H is a successful business owner with 50 employees, so you'd note that that's how successful people b…

Seems like a simple matter of signal to noise ratio to me. That single comment by itself does no real harm, but if it's not discouraged, the practice will proliferate. The situations you cite do not include the potential for noise overwhelming the signal, so they are not analogous. I know that a downvote can seem like a judgment on the person, but it's more a judgment on the action, and it can be instructive if taken…

this whole branch was useful to me, I now know that F_J_H is very successful and polite. context is one of the reasons I am here.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#213

Post by palish »

joebadmo wrote: post #208
palish wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been here long, I can say for certain that HN would only benefit from politeness similar to F_J_H.

Consider me enlightened. Thanks.

Sorry. It's definitely not my place to "enlighten" you. I don't want to be that kind of person.

I just am compelled to speak up for what I believe to be right. I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking your opinion, so in retrospect, I shouldn't be saying things like "I can say with absolute certainty..." I don't know anything for certain.

I just believe that the world is a nice place when people can simply say nice things to each other every once in awhile.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#214

Post by caryme »

Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art.

I would venture to say that music composition is also interactive. Music, to me, is art twice: first in the composition and second in the performance. Somewhat like programming, composers create something and send it out into the world so that others can use it, give it life, perform it.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#215

Post by adsr »

I found the discussion about domain experts interesting, as if there is no domains within CS. Wouldn't domain expertise in networks, machine learning, DSP, data bases, operating systems etc. be of any value.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#216

Post by qusiba »

jdietrich wrote: post #196

Once upon a time, I played poker for a living. The most important thing I learned was that the least important factor in how much I earned was my skill at poker. The most important skill was table selection, my decisions over which games to get involved in and who to sit next to. A close second was managing my resources, making sure I was playing within my financial and emotional means. If you want to be world champi…

I seldom write any reply on hacker news. But this time I feel I have something to say.

The fundamental question behind all these arguing is, what can be considered useful? In the other word, what we do, couldn't be considered a waste of life?

Philosophers have been arguing about this for 2000 thousand years. So I doubt there's going to an absolutely correct answer in near future. What I can offer, is just my personal choice.

Whether we like it or not, whatever we do, whatever we've build, good or evil, will vanish sooner or later. The human beings will extinct, the earth will become quite, the sun will extinguish. It's just matter of time. If nothing we do could make any sense in the long term, how can we consider something useful not?

Like any living things on this world, we, humans, are born to have many instincts, like to survive, to reproduce, to play. And when we don't obey these inner demands, we feel unhappy. So we eat, drink, sleep, f, and make money. However, that's because what we do is useful, or important, or has any meaning behind them.

Some people might feel happier when they can attain something that are useful* for others, which usually bring them more money, food, prestige, and many other things. But some might be satisfied enough by resolving some intelligent puzzles. As long as people don't end up in a crappy motel because they couldn't get their life in order, I guess these 2 attitudes towards life are both OK.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#217

Post by seri »

qusiba wrote: post #216
jdietrich wrote: post #196

Once upon a time, I played poker for a living. The most important thing I learned was that the least important factor in how much I earned was my skill at poker. The most important skill was table selection, my decisions over which games to get involved in and who to sit next to. A close second was managing my resources, making sure I was playing within my financial and emotional means. If you want to be world champi…

I seldom write any reply on hacker news. But this time I feel I have something to say. The fundamental question behind all these arguing is, what can be considered useful? In the other word, what we do, couldn't be considered a waste of life? Philosophers have been arguing about this for 2000 thousand years. So I doubt there's going to an absolutely correct answer in near future. What I can offer, is just my personal…

Although I like the grandparent's anecdote and up-voted him, I would have made the same argument as you did against his point. It's just confusing and therefore unsatisfactory to use usefulness as a tool to decide how to spend your life.

The reason why one shouldn't be That Guy is not because spending all your life playing Poker, or doing Maths, or playing Chess (as in the case of Bobby Fischer) just for the sake of it doesn't benefit others, but because when your level of obsession reaches a certain point, the point of diminishing returns, you just get confused -- you can't tell whether you are still getting pleasure doing it anymore. You've been off-balanced with other parts of life for too long that you've lost the ability to approach your passion purely from intellectual curiosity, as you used to.

So the bottom line is, solving intelligent puzzles is fun, as long as you don't abuse it.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#218

Post by dodecaphonic »

nightski wrote: post #140
ghotli wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point of his article. I believe Zed has shown that his mind is perfectly capable of seeing and processing the macro picture. Whether that be language theory, software engineering, or whatever he puts his energies towards. I may not agree with some of his opinions but the volume and quality of his output is indeed impressive. Haskell's type system _is_ complex, but so are most things that are looked upo…

I hate the tool argument. Programming languages are as much a tool as mathematics or English. I think of them more as a method of communication, a way to express your thoughts and ideas. Not only that but they are executable and unambiguous (most of the time heh). A programming language not only has the power to allow you to express your thoughts, but even to even shape them. The power of this field is in its infancy…

Exercises in style do not make books (Raymond Queneau nonwithstanding). If you just try out a load of languages, learning what's possible but not doing anything with it, what's the point?

I don't think he is discouraging learning new stuff, looking at new techniques. What he is saying is that a solipsistic attitude about programming is a waste, and that resonates with me. I've seen many a time people who can make awesome demos of SLIME, have Haskell tricks up their sleeve, write languages on weekends, and yet ultimately do absolutely nothing. It's scholarly, for sure, but that's it.

To be fair, I agree that there's explorations to be done in this realm, but the sorts of explorations that create value on a visible scale tend to go hand in hand with some application. "ERLANG'S SO AWESOME" because its ingenuity meets reality quite rapidly, and you can build stuff with it. In a societal scale, that's the true value.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#219

Post by Jach »

qusiba wrote: post #216
jdietrich wrote: post #196

Once upon a time, I played poker for a living. The most important thing I learned was that the least important factor in how much I earned was my skill at poker. The most important skill was table selection, my decisions over which games to get involved in and who to sit next to. A close second was managing my resources, making sure I was playing within my financial and emotional means. If you want to be world champi…

I seldom write any reply on hacker news. But this time I feel I have something to say. The fundamental question behind all these arguing is, what can be considered useful? In the other word, what we do, couldn't be considered a waste of life? Philosophers have been arguing about this for 2000 thousand years. So I doubt there's going to an absolutely correct answer in near future. What I can offer, is just my personal…

> Whether we like it or not, whatever we do, whatever we've build, good or evil, will vanish sooner or later. The human beings will extinct, the earth will become quite, the sun will extinguish. It's just matter of time. If nothing we do could make any sense in the long term, how can we consider something useful not?

Barring a humanity-friendly intelligence explosion event, of course. (I'll leave the Googling to you.)

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#220

Post by rickmb »

jdietrich wrote: post #196

Once upon a time, I played poker for a living. The most important thing I learned was that the least important factor in how much I earned was my skill at poker. The most important skill was table selection, my decisions over which games to get involved in and who to sit next to. A close second was managing my resources, making sure I was playing within my financial and emotional means. If you want to be world champi…

Not that I'm disagreeing with you when it comes to being a professional developer, and neither am I equating programming with art, but you've just argued against being an artist and creating art for art's sake.

There is nothing inherently wrong with pursuing something out of pure passion. If we all thought like that, if all of us religiously avoided being "That Guy", the world would be a much less interesting place. Some of the people I admire the most, who's work has inspired and enriched my life have spend all of their lives being "That Guy".

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