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A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

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Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#41

Post by avmich »

voidfunc wrote: post #28
laurent92 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Java is a big DSL to transform XML into stacktraces” — so was the joke at the time when domain-specific languages were the hype. This, and the FizzBuzz, Enterprise Edition: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... More seriously, what are you missing in Go that is well-done in Java? I assume verbosity of the code is still the defining characteristic of Java?

> More seriously, what are you missing in Go that is well-done in Java? 1. Generics. And yea, I know Go is getting generics "Real Soon Now" (tm), but it is incredibly annoying to write the same collection code over and over and there's some third-party libs that would really benefit from generics (looking at you Azure Go SDK). 2. Error handling... with the big caveat that I actually like Go's error handling mechanism…

> I'm honestly never quite sure what people mean by "verbosity" in Java.

Java improved with "var" keyword (use with caution!) and introduction of records. These are not the only code-shortening features (there are e.g. interface methods, diamond operator, lambdas, convenience "of(...)" methods, even "fluid style"), but they, used well, can really reduce verbosity.

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#42

Post by bcrosby95 »

matsemann wrote: post #22
laurent92 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Java is a big DSL to transform XML into stacktraces” — so was the joke at the time when domain-specific languages were the hype. This, and the FizzBuzz, Enterprise Edition: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... More seriously, what are you missing in Go that is well-done in Java? I assume verbosity of the code is still the defining characteristic of Java?

The java ecosystem is very nice. Not necessarily the language itself, but everything else. The jvm, the tools, the libraries are all very mature and good. Skipping java and instead using Kotlin allows one to reuse all that knowledge in a great language as well.

I guess it depends upon what you mean by ecosystem.

Java the language is ok. The culture (which is part of the ecosystem) and how you're pushed to write code is the biggest problem with Java. The wide array of tooling, frameworks, and libraries within the ecosystem is nice.

But the way you have to use them tends to be shit due to the culture surrounding the language. At least it seems to be shifting to something more sane.

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#43

Post by avmich »

tonyarkles wrote: post #23
laurent92 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Java is a big DSL to transform XML into stacktraces” — so was the joke at the time when domain-specific languages were the hype. This, and the FizzBuzz, Enterprise Edition: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... More seriously, what are you missing in Go that is well-done in Java? I assume verbosity of the code is still the defining characteristic of Java?

Now we've got Spring, which in my, admittedly limited, experience does a great job of transforming what could have been compile-time errors into run-time errors.

Well said :) . Spring looks so much as to show how useful ideas can be misapplied with catastrophic results. For example, liberate encouraging of dependency injections leads to multitude of interfaces which are only ever implemented once by a production code class, and maybe one more time by a test class, even though Java has all methods virtual and testing could be done without requiring the interface.

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#44

Post by avmich »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #42
matsemann wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The java ecosystem is very nice. Not necessarily the language itself, but everything else. The jvm, the tools, the libraries are all very mature and good. Skipping java and instead using Kotlin allows one to reuse all that knowledge in a great language as well.

I guess it depends upon what you mean by ecosystem. Java the language is ok. The culture (which is part of the ecosystem) and how you're pushed to write code is the biggest problem with Java. The wide array of tooling, frameworks, and libraries within the ecosystem is nice. But the way you have to use them tends to be shit due to the culture surrounding the language. At least it seems to be shifting to something more…

Good language ought to discourage (enough) the bad practices. Culture forms slowly, and it's Java fault that the culture managed to produce such excessities as proverbial FactoryFactoryFactory.

Edit: I still think Java is a good language, especially later versions, and both original goals and recent advances are quite noble.

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#45

Post by oftenwrong »

edp wrote: post #32
ericbarrett wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got burned out by endless JVM preening and devs configuring their runtime options to use 128MB in a 2GB container, or capitalizing their -Xm option wrong, or what have you. So now with cloud computing you have the JVM in a container on a virtual host, all of which have their own constraints to set—matryoshka dolls all the way down. Like, people always say, "Well that just means they didn't know what they were doing…

Starting with OpenJDK 11 (and I think available in OpenJDK8 with an optional flag), the JVM will use the memory constraints of the container, so no more -Xmx flags and so on if you are running the JVM in a container environment.

No flag necessary for latest versions of OpenJDK 8, either.

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#47

Post by pron »

laurent92 wrote: post #17
voidfunc wrote: post #13

Java gets a bad rap from people that used it late 90's through early 2000's and got burned out by XML and design pattern heavy frameworks but its a lovely language that with a little discipline can be used to create very lean looking code. Go is one of the HN darling languages and I work in Go everyday for work (and generally like it), but I really wish I could reach for Java most days.

“Java is a big DSL to transform XML into stacktraces” — so was the joke at the time when domain-specific languages were the hype. This, and the FizzBuzz, Enterprise Edition: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... More seriously, what are you missing in Go that is well-done in Java? I assume verbosity of the code is still the defining characteristic of Java?

I'd say the defining characteristic of Java is an unparalleled combination of performance, observability, and maintainability.

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#48

Post by The_rationalist »

The JVM will be getting state of the art, fine grained generics specialization, riefied generics and even Constant generics (you know that big feature that make a lot of noise in the Rust world) https://www.reddit.com/r/java/comments/m2dfb5/parametric_jvm...

(note that Kotlin already has riefied generics to some extent and that Scala support explicit Specialization (and Kt too through overloading))

Re: A categorized list of all Java and JVM features since JDK 8 to 16

#49

Post by the_only_law »

Thank god someone did this?

Not sure what it was about those versions particularly, but I kinda lost track of the language and runtime after Java 8 and I’ve spoken to a lot of other people who did as well.

Admittedly it’s around the time I stopped working in Java a lot, but I guess a lot of others did as well?

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