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The Disintegration of the ACLU

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Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#21

Post by jwalton »

jfengel wrote: post #5
geofft wrote: post #2

This article glosses over the actual results of Skokie and Charlottesville , both of which are pretty important. The Nazis never ended up marching in Skokie, nor did they march in any of the other small towns where they'd requested permits, either. There's a fair bit of reason to believe that their goal wasn't to promote their ideas, nor even to harass the heavily Jewish village of Skokie through marching, but to har…

They do seem surprised that "groups most frequently harassed, most frequently support limits on harassment".

Historically, countries that have outlawed speech have outlawed “talking about being gay” far more often than “harassing gay people”. I suspect it’s a unique form of madness that assumes that if you open the door to outlawing speech in America, then future Trumps and Pences and Bushes of the world will refrain from such a thing out of the kindness of their hearts.

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#22

Post by jariel »

bhouston wrote: post #10

It is hard to take this as a serious criticism First James Kirkpatrick argues that the ACLU doesn't stand for anything these days. Then he starts to associate the ACLU with cancel culture. Mostly by citing surveys of leftist students and implying that the ACLU is also leftist thus it is basically the same. Then he argues that the ACLU does stand very strongly for transgender rights but then criticizes it for being st…

"I think the key problem is that James doesn't like what the ACLU is prioritizing, that is all"

Except that's a serious criticism.

"“case selection guidelines,” stipulating, “Speech that denigrates such [marginalized] groups can inflict serious harms and is intended to and often will impede progress toward equality.” Before agreeing to take a free speech case, the document continued, the ACLU would now consider “the potential effect on marginalized communities,” whether the speech advances the goals of speakers whose “views are contrary to our values,” and the “structural and power inequalities in the community in which the speech will occur.” "

i.e. you can't say something, even factual, if it doesn't support the ideological causes of a specific version of 'equity', or rather, the ACLU doesn't care about your rights in that endeavour.

And that right there, is the end of the ACLU.

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#23

Post by [deleted] »

geofft wrote: post #11
throwaway0x2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it taken as an obvious fact that said female, LGBT, and Black students are wrong about free speech? Because de facto (and de jure) they are. >Why are they clearly indoctrinated? https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-cod... >Why not ask them why they don't support it? FIRE literally does exactly that. >Perhaps they have a well-considered opinion on the matter? This made me audibly chuckle. U…

That Atlantic article is pretty clear that they don't know the cause (" It’s difficult to know exactly why vindictive protectiveness has burst forth so powerfully in the past few years. ") They've got a bunch of speculations, that children aren't allowed to play outside or whatever. But even those weak speculations don't lend themselves to the thesis that children were indoctrinated: no part of being told not to play…

[deleted]

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#24

Post by [deleted] »

geofft wrote: post #11
throwaway0x2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it taken as an obvious fact that said female, LGBT, and Black students are wrong about free speech? Because de facto (and de jure) they are. >Why are they clearly indoctrinated? https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-cod... >Why not ask them why they don't support it? FIRE literally does exactly that. >Perhaps they have a well-considered opinion on the matter? This made me audibly chuckle. U…

That Atlantic article is pretty clear that they don't know the cause (" It’s difficult to know exactly why vindictive protectiveness has burst forth so powerfully in the past few years. ") They've got a bunch of speculations, that children aren't allowed to play outside or whatever. But even those weak speculations don't lend themselves to the thesis that children were indoctrinated: no part of being told not to play…

[deleted]

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#25

Post by [deleted] »

geofft wrote: post #11
throwaway0x2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it taken as an obvious fact that said female, LGBT, and Black students are wrong about free speech? Because de facto (and de jure) they are. >Why are they clearly indoctrinated? https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-cod... >Why not ask them why they don't support it? FIRE literally does exactly that. >Perhaps they have a well-considered opinion on the matter? This made me audibly chuckle. U…

That Atlantic article is pretty clear that they don't know the cause (" It’s difficult to know exactly why vindictive protectiveness has burst forth so powerfully in the past few years. ") They've got a bunch of speculations, that children aren't allowed to play outside or whatever. But even those weak speculations don't lend themselves to the thesis that children were indoctrinated: no part of being told not to play…

[deleted]

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#27

Post by ehvatum »

jonny_eh wrote: post #15

I don't see the benefit to being neutral if the Right is going to demonize it anyways.

Sure, why stand for principle if someone else might use rhetoric? What even is the point? Just go ahead and become the monstrous caricature your enemies sketch of you, at that point.

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#28

Post by esyir »

Animats wrote: post #4

"And unlike the 1970s, when the ACLU was run by stubbornly principled people who refused to buckle under the weight of fashionable opinion or donor pressure, the new generation of leaders prioritized conformism over intellectual consistency." That's a problem. The huge pressure for conformity. Both Left and Right are way too insistent on this. The Left now insists on gender concepts that were considered totally wacko…

Is there any major trend of cancellation for not liking trump /hating trump? The media in generally drowned in its pretty left aligned, so I haven't heard much of that.

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#29

Post by m_mueller »

Animats wrote: post #4

"And unlike the 1970s, when the ACLU was run by stubbornly principled people who refused to buckle under the weight of fashionable opinion or donor pressure, the new generation of leaders prioritized conformism over intellectual consistency." That's a problem. The huge pressure for conformity. Both Left and Right are way too insistent on this. The Left now insists on gender concepts that were considered totally wacko…

As an outsider, I think it is beyond not good. Your house is on fire.

Re: The Disintegration of the ACLU

#30

Post by Animats »

esyir wrote: post #28
Animats wrote: post #4

"And unlike the 1970s, when the ACLU was run by stubbornly principled people who refused to buckle under the weight of fashionable opinion or donor pressure, the new generation of leaders prioritized conformism over intellectual consistency." That's a problem. The huge pressure for conformity. Both Left and Right are way too insistent on this. The Left now insists on gender concepts that were considered totally wacko…

Is there any major trend of cancellation for not liking trump /hating trump? The media in generally drowned in its pretty left aligned, so I haven't heard much of that.

If you're a Republican elected official, and oppose Trump, you may be "primaried". That is, a Republican candidate more loyal to Trump may be found and funded to run against you.[1]

[1] https://www.newsweek.com/10-republicans-voted-impeach-trump-...

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