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Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

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Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the fastest route not the least carbon footprint?

Efficiency drops sharply at high speed.

For long distance driving speed is key. Highways can be faster even when they are indirect. This is what the OSMAnd "Fuel Efficient Way" routing is based on. It biases towards the shortest routes that may have lower speed limits. This is nice for road trips and bicycling, but can be quirky with city driving.

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#112
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that you're being flippant, but I did have a coworker who calculated the carbon footprint of his commute for various modes of transport, including walking. He came to the conclusion that, given the average amount of CO2 produced per calorie consumed, riding an e-bike was actually the lowest-impact way.

I have read that cyclists who only eat beef generate more CO2 per mile than a hybrid car, though that presumably that ignores all the carbon cost of building cars and car infrastructure. Bikes are still better in pretty much every way. https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/are-meat-eating-cyc...

It ignores so many factors that the result doesn't matter in any way other than to create a clickbait article.

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A carbon tax. If addressing climate change relies on people changing habits against their selfish interests, then we are doomed. The externality should be internalised with a carbon tax. It's the simple, most obvious solution and it will cause selfish interest and ethical choices to align when it comes to carbon emission.

I prefer a "green credit" to a "carbon tax". A tax will always be passed on to the consumer, even if the govt taxes Ford, it will just make the car more expensive. Using game theory, a question could be "how do we get Ford to make more electric cars, improve efficiency of electric car production, and incentivize them to advertise electric cars?" My take is that businesses drive change, not consumers. On the whole, co…

Of course it makes the ICE car more expensive (when including fuel costs). That's the whole idea.

Consumers will see that EVs are cheaper (post-tax) and will switch to EVs as a consequence.

You can make the tax revenue neutral.

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#115
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric vehicle and trains don't use gas

Yeah, they just use coal somewhere you don't see it.

They just use whatever the source for your power is which is so varied you couldn't ever assume. And even the same fuel source going to a power station to generate electricity for your car is massively more efficient than an ICE engine that regularly starts/stops and idles.

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#116
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are actively getting in the way of why I would use their product No they aren't. They're being completely transparent about this and giving you the option to keep the old behavior with a one-time settings change. So what's the problem exactly?

To literally answer your rhetorical question: dark patterns. Not that I think the behavior is wrong - choosing the more energy efficent of two comparable manuevers just makes sense in general. But "Changes to default behavior to change consumer outcomes." are literally dark patterns and rhetorically likened to mind control whenever they want to cast a company or industry as a villain.

"Dark patterns" is what we call it when it's done in the interest of the company, and usually against the interest of the consumer. In this case, being for the public interest, it's aligned with the much more benign "Libertarian Paternalism" approach outlined in the book Nudge - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_%28book%29

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A carbon tax. If addressing climate change relies on people changing habits against their selfish interests, then we are doomed. The externality should be internalised with a carbon tax. It's the simple, most obvious solution and it will cause selfish interest and ethical choices to align when it comes to carbon emission.

I prefer a "green credit" to a "carbon tax". A tax will always be passed on to the consumer, even if the govt taxes Ford, it will just make the car more expensive. Using game theory, a question could be "how do we get Ford to make more electric cars, improve efficiency of electric car production, and incentivize them to advertise electric cars?" My take is that businesses drive change, not consumers. On the whole, co…

When you propose a "green credit" instead of a "carbon tax", what do you mean? Is it just a different name for the same thing, or would it work differently? If it would work differently, then HOW? I'm assuming that a carbon tax would put a fixed tax per weight of C02 released charged either to the end-user or somewhere higher in the value chain (eg: a gas tax).

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#118
post #22

So they'll default to showing directions for biking, walking, and transit?

A pet peeve of mine is that google maps doesn't show most transit routes on the map. There is a transit layer you can enable, but it only shows metro and light rail, not buses, brt, trams, ferries, etc.

My pet peeve is that there is no hybrid bike/transit routing option. If you choose transit, they assume you are pedestrian. Maybe the option is there and I just have not found it.

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#119
post #4

The important paragraph that most people probably care about: Soon, Google Maps will default to the route with the lowest carbon footprint when it has approximately the same ETA as the fastest route. In cases where the eco-friendly route could significantly increase your ETA, we’ll let you compare the relative CO2 impact between routes so you can choose. Always want the fastest route? That’s OK too — simply adjust yo…

If I say to hell with the CO2 emissions and pick the fastest route always, will YouTube and Search direct me toward more climate change-oriented content? :-D

Re: Redefining what a map can be with new information and AI

#120
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of why I figured Google Maps for navigation. I don't use Maps to express my environmental values, I use it to get from A to B the fastest way. If they default to something else, they are actively getting in the way of why I would use their product. I have no interest in activist software.

>>I don't use Maps to express my environmental values Actually, you do. Your environmental values happen to be efficiency (Km/hour) trumps efficiency (Km/gram of CO2). You wish the software to continue to express only your environmental values. It is an activist stance nonetheless.

What percentage of the limited time in your life is worth what level of impact on climate change?

Do something much more likely to be useful: implement a reasonable, even revenue-neutral carbon tax and stop with this non-sense.

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