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Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

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31–40 of 55 posts

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#31
post #14
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder what kids could play with in other time periods. I guess that woodwork always was pretty excellent, so there could be all sorts of stuff that is lost by now.

My aunt growing up in Korea (just after WWII when it wasn't nearly as rich as today) used carrots that had two legs for her dolls. Kids can make anything work.

As a kid, the only real toy I had was Lego (and a bike, etc). I had other odds and ends but we didn't buy toys (my family was financially secure, my parents were just cheap/not into material stuff). Being the youngest grandchild of a large extended family, there was a lot of Lego. If I wanted to play "space", I'd build a rocket ship.

I had friends and cousins in a similar situation but because thier families were probably cheque to cheque or worse. They didn't even have Lego. We'd make toys with sticks or stuff we found on garbage day, etc.

As I got older, I had school friends with everything (full collection of Star Wars stuff, etc). They were always bored. "There's nothing to do!" :)

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#32
post #13

> These toys carried strong messages about girls’ expected roles in society. It's sad to see this Critical Theory nonsense trickling into real disciplines. Children play pretend, and they dress their dolls like their mothers and other people they admire. It's not an insidious plot, it's a culture and youthful admiration. If you can look at a toy a child loves so much that they were buried with it and see a ploy by so…

> It's sad to see this Critical Theory nonsense trickling into real disciplines.

Are you posting from the ARPAnet? I ask because as a take this is 40 years out of date. Feminist analysis as applied to archaeology has a pretty solid history : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_archaeology

The thing about archaeology is the objects of its study are things made by people who happened to be living in a society (ok sometimes they study actual human remains, but I have to point out that those too were made with untrained labor). If you want to use the things to understand the people--and if you don't, why are you doing archaeology in the first place?--it's important to use what we know about people and societies in general to guide your analysis.

What are some important facts about people and societies? Well, people are generally bilateral bipedal, have a mineralized internal skeleton, like to wear clothes and get out of the rain, and so on.

In particular, people tend to be weakly sexually dimorphic (with substantial overlap and exceptions), and societies tend to divide among that line with varying intensities (again with overlap and exceptions). So if we want to study the people of the past, one of the things we need to understand is how that division tends to manifest and be maintained, and one way to do that is to understand how it manifests and is maintained in observable, i.e. modern, societies.

And once you start looking at things from a "how" perspective it's not too hard to start noticing that one mechanism is giving children toys that encourage play in ways that reinforce the ways in which they will be expected to act in the side of that subdivision they were assigned at birth.

(This isn't necessarily a comfortable thought! All of us on this forum were young children at one point in our lives, and with probably some rare exceptions would have been soaking in this boy-side or girl-side split the whole way through. I know I certainly was!)

Anyway, this is getting kind of long. To sum up, understanding how people on both sides of that division lived and how their society maintained that division is necessary to understanding their society as a whole, and if 'acknowledging that women are people and an honest examination of how they are treated by society' isn't feminism, I don't know what is.

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I would never want to hang out with someone who, because of a single difference in opinion about dolls, would conclude that I am "sick in the head" and therefore socially worthless. And I'm not even touching your "female DNA" comment, though I'm sure if we dug our heels into that we'd find several more reasons you're no good to be around.

You know that "female DNA" is a fact right? XX vs XY anyone? Do you really believe that human beings are 100% blank slates, biology has no effect whatsoever?

So is it the extra X or the absence of the Y that you're suggesting is the reason for a preference for dolls?

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#34
post #29

Is every discipline now destroyed by Intersectional nonsense? "Analyzing the dolls of elite girls shows that playthings reinforced gendered expectations but also allowed for imaginative play." "Barbie dolls tend to get a bad rap. Critics rebuke them for promoting harmful body standards and other sexist tropes in the minds of young children." Except for the millions of girls who like playing with them? "But some schol…

It's how you get noticed these days. It's hard for me to read past it as well, but I assume we'll continue to make slow progress understanding the past, even with these self-imposed handicaps.

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I would never want to hang out with someone who, because of a single difference in opinion about dolls, would conclude that I am "sick in the head" and therefore socially worthless. And I'm not even touching your "female DNA" comment, though I'm sure if we dug our heels into that we'd find several more reasons you're no good to be around.

I get that the female DNA comment might sound ignorant, but I was going down a rabbit hole about why girls play with dolls and came across the article below. It says that there might be some biological factors why girls gravitate towards things like dolls. Basically, girls might be wired to prefer “socially interesting” toys whereas boys like “mechanically interesting” toys. Obviously, it’s not 100% guaranteed what y…

> Basically, girls might be wired to prefer “socially interesting” toys whereas boys like “mechanically interesting” toys.

If we try to generalize findings of primatologists onto humans, namely what Franz de Waal writes about chimpanzee, than I'd rather say that boys prefer toys that model objects, while girls prefer toys that model subjects. Chimpanzee males seek power and control, they play political games forming coalitions, breaking from them out, they are friendly when it seems beneficial for them and hostile when needed. Chimpanzee females seek stable relationships, their relationships last longer, easily they could last for life. I mean, if we think of chimpanzee as of humans, then how we model the mind of a male? He sees his neighbors as objects which should be manipulated for his benefit. While females see others as subjects: it helps to respect their needs and to be respected back, it allows understand each other needs, and to form a long-term relationship based on a cooperation.

See how it nicely fits together? It is not a some kind of a science theory, it is just my own unfounded speculations. What I want to say, that it one of the reasons because I doubt that all the difference between boys and girls preferences could be explained by a nurture. Some of it must be a nature thing.

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#37
post #2

This article does the difficult job of actually saying nothing interesting but still giving the impression that it holds some great newly discovered insight about Roman doll playing.

Welcome to most of academic publications in the humanities (and recently even in hard-science)

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#38
post #29

Is every discipline now destroyed by Intersectional nonsense? "Analyzing the dolls of elite girls shows that playthings reinforced gendered expectations but also allowed for imaginative play." "Barbie dolls tend to get a bad rap. Critics rebuke them for promoting harmful body standards and other sexist tropes in the minds of young children." Except for the millions of girls who like playing with them? "But some schol…

It is, what it is worst it has become a sort of neo cultural imperialism , where white monolingual Anglos tell for example to Latinos that their gendered languages are wrong and must be changed.

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#39
post #13

> These toys carried strong messages about girls’ expected roles in society. It's sad to see this Critical Theory nonsense trickling into real disciplines. Children play pretend, and they dress their dolls like their mothers and other people they admire. It's not an insidious plot, it's a culture and youthful admiration. If you can look at a toy a child loves so much that they were buried with it and see a ploy by so…

My dear Seneca,what you are watching is, in the word of Herr Spengler, "Der Untergang des Abendlandes". China will rule the world, their Confucian worldview is extremely pragmatic and has zero time for all this nonsense.

Re: Girls and dolls in the Roman Empire

#40
post #13

> These toys carried strong messages about girls’ expected roles in society. It's sad to see this Critical Theory nonsense trickling into real disciplines. Children play pretend, and they dress their dolls like their mothers and other people they admire. It's not an insidious plot, it's a culture and youthful admiration. If you can look at a toy a child loves so much that they were buried with it and see a ploy by so…

> It's sad to see this Critical Theory nonsense trickling into real disciplines. Are you posting from the ARPAnet? I ask because as a take this is 40 years out of date. Feminist analysis as applied to archaeology has a pretty solid history : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_archaeology The thing about archaeology is the objects of its study are things made by people who happened to be living in a society (ok so…

Nothing of value has been added by having a "feminist" point of view. People (men and women) have been doing archeology for a long time, and the experience of girls and women have been studied (You could argue the extent of course) by countless scholars.

I suppose I dont belong to the enlightened crowd when I dont understand quotes like these:

> “Is e=mc2 a sexed equation? Perhaps it is. Let us make the hypothesis that it is insofar as it privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us. What seems to me to indicate the possible sexed nature of the equation is not directly its uses by nuclear weapons, rather it is having privileged what goes the fastest.”

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