With these sorts of articles now I'm never quite sure what to believe. Now before you jump in to mock me, it's just that I don't have time to keep really up-to-date with climate change anymore. Are we really getting warmer? Are we cooling? What's causing it? For each article I read that tells me one thing, a few days later another comes out and tells me the previous one was wrong and here's why. I hope that this arti…
I collect them. You can really only know who is right after the fact, before that its all 'my model is more accurate than your model' bullshit. I always feel like the 'rational' view point is that the climate will change for any number of reasons, some we control and some we don't. We should be prepared. But folks who have bought into the Global Warming religion (which is to say they stepped away from the science and…
New ice age? Don't count on it
101–110 of 119 posts
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
For some reason the global warming crowd doesn't talk about the fact that the primary greenhouse gas is water vapor. CO2 only makes up something like 10%, and the human caused part only about 4% of that, which is 0.4% overall.
global warming crowd I don't know if that's the bes term, since I think you'll find it's the same as the evolution crowd and heliocentric crowd. Your argument is specious -- we're also only talking about it getting a few degrees warmer. If you investigate, you'll find why that's a problem.
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
By focusing public attention on something else. It's not as if we had a shortage of problems. Then, the matter of climate change could be settled in a scientific manner, as opposed to a religious debate involving legions of people who don't know what they're talking about. Obviously, i'm being unrealistic. Once it's become politicized, it's already too late.
Climate change has been settled in a scientific matter. The scientists unanimously think it's happening. The problem is that science doesn't matter in politics. A majority could vote that the laws of thermodynamics don't hold, if they wanted to.
Some scientist asked the question "Since we know climate changes, is it changing now? And if it is changing now, how is it changing?" And in response to that question lots of great research was done to look at factors which could affect climate.
Generally the science has always started with a basic model describing net energy, energy added to the planet minus energy radiated from the planet. The theory being that the laws of thermodynamics tell us that if the net energy was positive the overall planet would get warmer over time and if the net energy were negative it would get cooler over time.
Once that was established as the basic framework, people set out to try to identify every way in which energy is 'added' to the planet (sources) and every way in which energy 'leaves' the planet (sinks). Each of these sources or sinks have an unknown contribution to the overall equation.
Many of the sources and sinks are variable, which is to say they change in magnitude over time. So a sub-problem that people have invested a lot of time and energy in trying to identify 'proxies' or direct ways to identify variability. The classic example is of course CO2.
CO2 is a 'greenhouse' gas in that it traps energy because it is opaque to infra-red light. Higher frequency light passes through it and is absorbed or reflected by what that light hits. Light that is reflected returns to space, light that is absorbed is re-radiated as infra-red light (black body radiation). CO2 in the atmosphere prevents that radiation from leaving the planet. So like a car with the windows up, or a green house, the infra-red light is ‘trapped.’ The amount of infrared light that will be trapped (and its energy content) is proportional to the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. More CO2, more energy is trapped, less goes to space.
Once you have a bunch of sources and sinks, and measurements of their variability over time, and measurements of the temperature over time, you construct a 'model' for how they all contribute to the climate. The model is a series of coefficients to attach to each source or sink based on its relative contribution to the other sources and sinks.
You pick numbers kind of out of the air as to the co-efficients to give each source or sink, and you use the measurements you've taken and put them in your model and get back a predicted set of temperatures. You compare that to the temperatures that were actually measured and look to see how well they correlate.
You continue to measure these things, you feed your new measurements into your model, and you predict future changes. Then when the future becomes the present, you look at what you predicted and compare that to what the model said would happen and if they don't agree you go back and fiddle with the co-efficients until they do.
That is all good solid science. But in climate science something unfortunate happened.
Of all the things folks were putting into the models, the one that had the biggest co-efficient (which defined it as the greatest overall contributor to the climate) has been 'greenhouse gases' (which includes CO2 and Methane). Scientists being scientists identify all the sources of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. And one of them, CO2, is a byproduct of 'industrialization' (aka human activity).
That observation, created a religion. The religion's first principles were:
) The climate is changing. (remember this)
1) Greenhouse Gas is the biggest factor affecting the climate.
2) CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
3) Human activity creates CO2.
4) Human activity is the* dominant factor in the warming of the climate.
5) If Humans would apply themselves to eliminating the production of CO2 the climate will stop changing.
The first tragedy here is that science didn't "discover" the climate was changing, they knew the climate changed, they were only trying to figure out if the current change was a warmer period or a colder period. That green house gases was the dominant factor was a surprise because it creates a new question “What are all the factors that change the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere?” One of the things the science agreed on was that the climate changes whether or not humans are present, so the religious tenet that we can control the climate by eliminating our production of CO2 is false.
Several people did however recognize that the religion met the model for enacting large scale changes. That model is :
1) Find a really big threat, explain how the threat will kill you.
2) Describe how only by following the religion can the threat be averted/met.
3) Explain that people who aren’t part of the religion aren’t just stupid, they are threatening our ability to meet the threat and should be eliminated/marginalized.
This scheme works and so people use it. Whether you’re un-american for not agreeing that Communisim will destroy life as we know it, or that your un-american for not reducing your carbon footprint and averting the coming flood of rising seawater, if you’re not fighting with us against the boogeyman, you are the Enemy.
So the science of climate change is still working on their models. This solar minimum will give us new data to update our models and co-efficients. If it exposes the Global Warming religion for what it is, then I don’t think Al Gore will take the fall, I think science will, and that makes me sad.
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
I collect them. You can really only know who is right after the fact, before that its all 'my model is more accurate than your model' bullshit. I always feel like the 'rational' view point is that the climate will change for any number of reasons, some we control and some we don't. We should be prepared. But folks who have bought into the Global Warming religion (which is to say they stepped away from the science and…
I you collect them and believe Global Warming is a religion, perhaps you can analyze the data yourself and prove it wrong, just like jgc did: http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/01/new-version-of-crutem3-and-h...
"I've received yet another email indicating that the author thinks I don't believe man is responsible for global warming. This comes about because of an insidious sort of tribalism that has turned conversations about climate change into a 'you're either with us or against us' situation."
This has been my experience as well when I try to discuss the science. People want me to come out as either 'pro-Warming' or 'anti-Warming' and I'm not either. I'm interested in the systems problem that global climate represents.
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
Green energy does exist. If by “green energy” you are referring to energy production that is renewable or doesn’t produce significant CO2 emissions, then it does exist. Here are some examples from Sweden: District heating systems in Sweden has switched from being nearly entirely fossil fuel based (oil mainly) in the early 70s (15 TWh) and following decade (35 TWh) to be nearly entirely renewable energy in 2009 (59 TW…
A nit: aren't biofuels, waste and peat only "green" in the sense that they are renewable. In terms of climate change (which is the point of this discussion), these sources still release CO2, no?
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Climate change has been settled in a scientific matter. The scientists unanimously think it's happening. The problem is that science doesn't matter in politics. A majority could vote that the laws of thermodynamics don't hold, if they wanted to.
Long before people started measuring CO2 concentrations in ice cores we knew, unequivocally that the climate on the planet "changes." It has been both warmer and colder in the past, there are fossil records, there are glacial valleys, there are even pictures painted on cave walls. Some scientist asked the question "Since we know climate changes, is it changing now? And if it is changing now, how is it changing?" And…
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
A nit: aren't biofuels, waste and peat only "green" in the sense that they are renewable. In terms of climate change (which is the point of this discussion), these sources still release CO2, no?
Indeed. There is a campaign ongoing in Sweden to classify peat as fossil fuel as it takes thousands of years to recreate a peat bog. However that is how it happens to be classified in Sweden at this moment. If we didn't make waste out of oil, such as plastic bags, but paper bags etc. then waste would be "more"green than it is today. Of course a true recyclables would be preferred.
They have only one advantage: No litter.
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#108With these sorts of articles now I'm never quite sure what to believe. Now before you jump in to mock me, it's just that I don't have time to keep really up-to-date with climate change anymore. Are we really getting warmer? Are we cooling? What's causing it? For each article I read that tells me one thing, a few days later another comes out and tells me the previous one was wrong and here's why. I hope that this arti…
I collect them. You can really only know who is right after the fact, before that its all 'my model is more accurate than your model' bullshit. I always feel like the 'rational' view point is that the climate will change for any number of reasons, some we control and some we don't. We should be prepared. But folks who have bought into the Global Warming religion (which is to say they stepped away from the science and…
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. There is a campaign ongoing in Sweden to classify peat as fossil fuel as it takes thousands of years to recreate a peat bog. However that is how it happens to be classified in Sweden at this moment. If we didn't make waste out of oil, such as plastic bags, but paper bags etc. then waste would be "more"green than it is today. Of course a true recyclables would be preferred.
Except paper bags are far worse for the environment than plastic. The use more water, more energy to make, more energy to transport, more energy to trash, and more energy (and water) to recycle. They also can not be reused. They have only one advantage: No litter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2007/10...
I personally use very few bags as I have cloth bags with me when I am shopping for food etc. A nit, paper bags can certainly be reused, I do it all the time for our recycling, which is kept in paper bags i the garage and sometimes for shopping.
More energy and water use in Sweden is less of a problem, as our energy is largely biofuel, hydro or nuclear, but of course it is better to use less energy. Water we have quite a lot of.
Plastics isn't biodegradable and paper is, but yes, you are right, this is not an easy good/bad choice.
Re: New ice age? Don't count on it
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, flag is for spam. The moderation is not symmetrical - it only goes to -4, but has no limit in the other direction. And it doesn't matter what you think it implies. The reality is that the custom here is not to downmod comments you disagree with. It wasn't always so, even pg at one time thought differently. But experience shows that the discussion is much better when this custom is followed.
Symmetry is symmetry, no matter what I do think of it. If you make symmetrical actions for asymmetrical intents, that is just bad UI. I've had enough comments downvoted purely on disagreement (including the one above. Or was it "stupid"?) to not to buy your "custom" argument.
I've also had downvotes like that - it doesn't make it right.