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Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

libreboot.org

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Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, you're either forced to defend Richard Stallman and accept what's going on over there, or __YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF ALL OPEN SOURCE__. Where did they say that, or anything that implies that?

They plainly state their irrational opinion that the resignation was the result of a smear campaign by anti-open-source entities and even list them. That's just hysterical garbage. RMS did this to himself by being an abrasive asshole and failing to curb his autistic tendencies. As a major thought leader, he ought to know better.

> RMS did this to himself by being an abrasive asshole

So what? Steve Jobs was celebrated while he shat on people left and right and even denied his own daughter's claims that he's her father for years. Elon Musk publicly called someone else a pedophile and hired specialists(which turned out to be scammers) to dig up dirt against that person. Linus Torvalds is known for being rather unfriendly to a lot of people, yet I haven't seen an open letter against him after he said "Nvidia, fuck you" in front of the camera.

The world is full of assholes. If I have to choose I'll take the one who actually stood for something and gets his claims confirmed more every year rather than another corporate dude whose main skill is hiding that he's the same kind of asshole, just in a more backstabby kind of way.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think RMS is a good choice in any leadership position. However I don't understand the magnitude of the current outrage and don't think it's fully rational. Furthermore, I think without his uncompromising attitude towards Free Software the FSF would not be what it is now.

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#182
post #171

From the linked article: > Our opponents wish to destroy Free Software > Our opponent’s true target is not Richard Stallman; their real aim is to destroy the FSF by thoroughly infiltrating it (like they already have with organisations like the OSI and Linux Foundation). These people even started an online petition calling for RMS’s forceful removal and for the entire board of directors at the FSF to resign from their…

You are not forced to defend him, in fact Leah calls some of Stallman's statements "idiotic" herself. But she is intellectually mature enough to see that most humans have had 5 stupid views over 30 years, and Stallman was just honest enough to write them down. You don't need to defend the views (some of which have already been retracted), but you have to accept Stallman as flawed human being. Stallman is currently st…

> You don't need to defend the views (some of which have already been retracted), but you have to accept Stallman as flawed human being.

This (the holding on to his views of 15 years ago, which he has since come to understand are wrong) is a major issue in the modern world IMHO.

That's not to defend Stallman's more recent gaffes, or even those older ones. But it raises a question - we know people can learn, grow and change. At what point does society start to accept that something said online in the past is no longer representative of the living person?

Because if it's "never", we appear to be gearing up for a future where politicians can only be people who have never set a single rhetorical foot wrong, and have been on-message since the day they came of age. And that scares me because such people are probably psychopaths or puritans.

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#183
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never said it was, I said it was one which seems to have been created on the spot as a convenient way to demonize "others" given that the moral movement has never been morally bankrupt enough for the last few decades to exclude individuals based on their participation in proprietary projects. Free software has always been a moral movement; it's those who promote proprietary software that are morally bankrupt. > A…

>Free software has always been a moral movement; it's those who promote proprietary software that are morally bankrupt. Ah, so those employed by proprietary software inherently promote it? You lack a grasp of those within the free software movement, then. >Being against proprietary software is pro-freedom, and nothing I'm saying is ahistorical. You're pretty clearly conflating the open source movement (based around p…

> Ah, so those employed by proprietary software inherently promote it?

This is how it works, yes. We are complicit in our employers' deeds, whether that's working for a company that does ICE contracts or working for a company that harms people with proprietary software.

> Again, you're inventing purity tests because you've never contributed to the movement and you clearly lack an understanding of the movement's history.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

> The GNU Manifesto and Debian Social Contract are in direct contradiction to your purity test, and the former explicitly discusses the subject at hand.

The GNU Manifesto is far different in aim than the Debian Social Contract, and it doesn't whatsoever encourage proprietary software. It promotes selling software, which isn't the same thing. It criticizes proprietary software at multiple points and insults people who make it:

"Proprietary and secret software is the moral equivalent of runners in a fist fight. Sad to say, the only referee we've got does not seem to object to fights; he just regulates them (“For every ten yards you run, you can fire one shot”). He really ought to break them up, and penalize runners for even trying to fight."

It might be time for a reread.

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#184
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The letter is a bit hot headed and other commentors here are too. He expands on his reasoning in the letter. The problem with many of these organizations is the huge influence that big tech have on them. Remember, not too long ago a Microsoft exec literally said that Linux is a cancer. Now they're changing their tune, but everyone still has vivid memories of their Embrace and Extinguish campaigns. Many people, especi…

Not long ago? That was in 2001, which is 20 years ago!

>There was plenty of cancel culture against blacks and there was also A LOT of violence used against them when the black protested against it and against their treatment.

Would you characterize the violence used against minorities as ancient history or would you say it is still very relevant? Companies, like counties have the burden of their history to bare.

I would hope that Microsoft has changed but I for one would not trust them. Nor would I trust any other large company, they all have their own motives that sometimes align with Open Source but they can also change their stance. Notably Google has made moves to close source Android(2016, not sure how it played out)(https://fossbytes.com/google-making-closed-source-android-pr...)

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Our opponents wish to destroy Free Software" Does not in any way imply that people not defending RMS wish to destroy Free Software. > So, you're either forced to defend Richard Stallman and accept what's going on over there, or __YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF ALL OPEN SOURCE__. This quote does, and is mischaracterising the position of the linked article.

>Does not in any way imply that people not defending RMS wish to destroy Free Software. From the statement it is understood that you are defending free software by defending Stallman, and those attacking Stallman are attacking free software. At best this is hyperbolic, abrasive language that makes bystanders at least complacent as the destruction of free software happens by some "Orwellian" conspiracy. Their statemen…

It's not just RMS, they call for the removal of the entire FSF board.

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's because everyone was allowed to speak that the message came across and won minds. Eh, you need to revisit your history lessons. There was plenty of cancel culture against blacks and there was also A LOT of violence used against them when the black protested against it and against their treatment.

> Eh, you need to revisit your history lessons. There was plenty of cancel culture against blacks and there was also A LOT of violence used against them when the black protested against it and against their treatment. Certainly, but supporters of the movement were not cancelled simply by association. This movement is literally trying to silence anyone who even associates with their target.

> supporters of the movement were not cancelled simply by association.

What you are saying is the equal to claiming that no black people were fired or otherwise hurt in situations not directly related to protests because they were taking part of the movement.

I'm sorry, but that is simply laughable as not only was that common, it was also fairly common for the Klan to lynch black people that was part of it. There is indeed a difference between cancel culture now and then and that difference is that it was STRONGER then. By a lot.

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's because everyone was allowed to speak that the message came across and won minds. Eh, you need to revisit your history lessons. There was plenty of cancel culture against blacks and there was also A LOT of violence used against them when the black protested against it and against their treatment.

> Eh, you need to revisit your history lessons. There was plenty of cancel culture against blacks and there was also A LOT of violence used against them when the black protested against it and against their treatment. Certainly, but supporters of the movement were not cancelled simply by association. This movement is literally trying to silence anyone who even associates with their target.

[deleted]

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#189
post #14

"Clearly, they/them is commonly understood and will cause the least amount of misunderstanding." While I support this campaign and I support RMS right to free speech, I find it ridiculous that everyone is now expected to use they/them pronouns for non-binaries etc. Am I the only one or has the world gone absolutely batshit insane, driven by purple haired Twitter trans-extremists?

Whether somebody is called he, she, or them may reasonably fluster some people, but it certainly doesn't seem to warrant something as hateful as, "the world gone absolutely batshit insane, driven by purple haired Twitter trans-extremists". To me, this stance and its wording is much more extreme and "insane" (to use your choice of insult - I would say something like "irrational").

I can understand your perspective, but that's only held up if one subscribes to the (erroneous and misunderstood/misused version of) Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance:

> A tolerant society should be tolerant by default, > With one exception: it should not tolerate intolerance itself.

First, at face value, consider two individuals engaging about one's identity preference: Alice wants to be referred to by a non-binary pronoun. Bob doesn't wish to comply.

The direct harm to Alice is a feeling of rejection and othering by another individual. What is the equivalent justice to restore this perceived harm?

To my mind, it would be a likewise rejection of self by an individual, preferably by Alice.

However, it may sometimes result in Alice publicly posting about it or telling their friends about it and a deluge of hate is poured on Bob for his actions. This "punishment" cannot reasonably be perceived as just because the reaction is outsized.

Now, consider a similar scenario in which Bob does not know Alice, and he expresses publicly that he does not wish to recognize alternative pronouns.

The effect may be that Alice, et al perceive offense and are hurt by this broad statement. But Bob did not assert this on Alice specifically, nor anyone. It was an expression of preference (or a rejection thereof).

Still, a mob of offended parties (and their allies) may engage in large scale, directed defamatory remarks. Given Bob's broad and general statement, is that reaction just or unjust?

In order to perceive it as balanced, one would have to subscribe to the Paradox of Tolerance: that tolerance of intolerance is intolerant. However, the applicability of this philosophy implies that an expression of a desire not to recognize alternative pronouns is not just a personal expression, but a directive to others.

I'll leave it up to the reader to consider both sides of that application, but let's presume that an expression is, in fact, a directive to others that they, too, should reject alternative pronouns.

Now Bob's statement can be perceived to affect individuals of whom he's never met, thus suggesting harm to a number of people. Is a mass response of directed verbal harm a just reaction to his expression?

If one believes that implicit harm could be found, then a response of direct harm by many people would be just. But the Paradox of Tolerance doesn't, actually, support this perspective. (Even though it's often cited.)

For harm to be justly foisted on an individual who simply has or expresses intolerant views, those views must be actively harmful. As Karl Popper wrote:

> I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.

To "keep them in check by public opinion" does not mean—in our context—through force, as he explicitly addresses "suppression [read: force] would certainly be unwise."

So the thought remains: what is a just response to a broadcast of preference contrary to another's preference? My thought would be: a likewise broadcast of preference in favor of alternative pronouns. Note that this does not explicitly target Bob, as he did not explicitly target an individual.

So when the parent expresses the "extreme" view of "insanity", they are likely following the outsized, intentional acts of violence/vengeance against people who did not, in fact, directly harm the group engaging in this retaliatory act.

For one to justify the force of many against the implicit harm enacted by an individual, one has to stretch the bounds of justice to allow realized damage in response to their perceived harm.

Thus, parent's perception that those on the side of the pronoun discussion are "extreme" and "insane" is—taking their words intent and not literally—quite reasonable.

For that not to be reasonable, one must find it reasonable, instead, to engage in outsized, real, harmful actions in response to an expressed opinion.

If one believes it to be unreasonable to seek to damage the career—and by extension, life—of someone who prefers to be identified as "they/them" for exercising that preference, then one must also find it to be unreasonable to enact such harm to someone who chooses to exercise their preference of not referring to others as such.

If one perceives that one such reaction can be characterized as "extreme", then it is reasonable to perceive the inverse behavior to be characterized as "extreme". And if one chooses to reject the balance of this logical equivalence, then one is behaving illogically.

And if one justifies the use of this extreme response illogically, then it would be reasonable to characterize this behavior as "extreme" and "insanity", colloquially speaking.

I welcome reasoned responses.

Re: Libreboot – Defend Richard Stallman

#190
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all a "child" is defined as the age between birth and puberty, so you might want to update your own usage of that word. Secondly, the bigger part of the world seems to agree nowadays that 16 seems to be a reasonable age of consent. US is very conservative in this regards, depending on the state. So basically it's OK that a 50 year old has sex with a 16 year old in 1 state, but when you cross the state border…

Sure, replace the word "child" with "minor" or whatever, I'm not a lawyer here, it's clear what I mean from context. The point is that once the rules are set, you follow them because to do otherwise means either you are an abuser, or you are willing to do things that are indistinguishable from an abuser, giving them cover and breaking the rules that are designed to protect minors. Either way, you are endangering mino…

As a leader you indeed need to protect people, and when someone is accused of "assault", I think it's OK to put things in perspective. He gave a clear objective description of the situation, and nobody can claim his observations were wrong. Remember that the accusation was "assault", and I agree with Stallman that this was too harsh given the circumstances.

I want my leaders to stand up for reality. If you prefer your leaders to be "think about the children", then that's up to you.

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