I found the book that contains this chapter quite impressive. It represents the only attempt I've seen to document the procedure many self-taught programmers followed to learn programming by exploring. At first, reading the instructions about carefully typing in the exercises, it took me some time to realize the point (and I don't think someone would get much value out of only typing in the exercises); however, once I read some of the "Extra Credit" exercises it made perfect sense as an introduction to learning by exploration. If typing in the exercises and running them doesn't give you an irresistible urge to tweak them and see what happens, you probably won't find programming fun.
Advice From An Old Programmer
121–130 of 230 posts
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#122hah, well shit way to spoil the end of the book for me!
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with this, but I guess I don't know who he thinks needs this advice. I assumed his advice was for the programmer lackey who wishes they had a more interesting job. I would assume a biophysics PhD in this day and age probably already has been exposed to programming, maybe even in Python. I mean, my sister has an MPH and she had to take SAS programming courses, and she graduated 8 years ago. It's 2011, not 1979…
Yeah, I'd generalize the advice to: don't be a programmer, be a domain expert who happens to write good code. I think that's still extremely valuable advice in a world where "hackers" are obsessed with the whizziest language, version-control system, editor, database flavor, etc., and other sorts of largely irrelevant technical ephemera that ages like dead fish. Meanwhile, nobody understands statistics. It's a problem…
> don't be a programmer, be a domain expert who happens to write good code.
A million times, yes. I work in RF design, which feels like an extremely stodgy part of electrical engineering. People think Excel spreadsheets are the bee's knees, even when changing one potential part in your circuit means re-entering its parameters by hand. Don't even ask them to sweep across different frequency points (which affects part performance).
I get a lot more benefit out of writing some short programs in python that allow me to quickly iterate through possible designs, and across a serious breadth of options, than these "Excel engineers" do out of their worksheets. It's frustrating to watch so many people ignore so much potential to improve their work and output.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#124Some good points buried among juvenile posturing, I guess the "old" part must be irony. Would you take programming language advice from someone who has learned the language in "a day or a week"? I realize the point is the language doesn't really matter but statements like that and the general tenor of the post don't inspire me.
No, most languages are isomorphic up to semantics. the outliers today are the logic languages, the HM typed languages and the macro languages. javascript, qbasic, java, c++, c, c#, ruby, python, perl, they are all very similar, some with their knobs exposed, some without, some with bad environments, some with better, some with closures, some without. Once you grok the inner similarity of software, it's just not very…
I agree with you.
However, I think you're using "isomorphic up to X" incorrectly. Perhaps I don't know what you mean by "semantics", though.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#125My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring, and a lot of the stuff he says might be true for Zed, it sure as hell isn't true for the rest of us:
"Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint."
If this is actually true for you, and you can actually code, you really need to be making brighter career moves.
"People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines."
Well, maybe. But this sounds like random riffing from someone who hasn't held a senior, stable position in an actual tech company nor worked as a programmer in any of the long list of disciplines. I've met plenty of people who were the duty programmer in a non-CS area who were treated like shit.
But what would I know? At around the time I was messing around with software pipelined SIMD string and pattern matchers, Zed was pursuing the real business of a Working Programmer, which is to say, writing rants and offering to rent a boxing ring to fight people who made physical threats to him (which, I admit, is kinda cool).
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
> programming for biology and medical research ... is just like any other mediocre programming job, but your office is a folding table under a decommissioned fume hood. That is sooo spot on (left my bioinformatics job a month ago for the exact same reason). What the author additionally misses is that when you have never programmed/developed as your primary means of making a living, you likely have never worked with p…
I get what you mean about learning from other people, but I don't think it's as black and white. I think working on FOSS projects with the community can be just as rewarding and educational as working with someone in a similar scenario in a business environment, particularly when it is taken seriously and you leverage the community to better educate yourself in areas you aren't familiar with. I just think it's dising…
Hey I'm not putting down FOSS -- the only way I myself learned that there is a better world out there is through FOSS. My comment was more general (i.e. if you are a programmer, it will do good to you to be around other programmers at least for some time; if you are an artist, it will do good to you to be around other artists for a while, etc.).
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#127I'm just going to start linking to Shoshin every time I see a weary, old coder blogger post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#128Lovely end to a book. To say other forms of art are not interactive however is a little short sighted.
Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#129My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring, and a lot of the stuff he says might be true for Zed, it sure as hell isn't true for the rest of us: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint." If this is actual…
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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer
#130The piece is definitely tainted by the author's personal experience but the closing message is uplifting and empowering,
"Finally, I will say that learning to create software changes you and makes you different. Not better or worse, just different. You may find that people treat you harshly because you can create software, maybe using words like "nerd". Maybe you will find that because you can dissect their logic that they hate arguing with you. You may even find that simply knowing how a computer works makes you annoying and weird to them.
To this I have one just piece of advice: they can go to hell. The world needs more weird people who know how things work and who love to figure it all out. When they treat you like this, just remember that this is your journey, not theirs. Being different is not a crime, and people who tell you it is are just jealous that you have picked up a skill they never in their wildest dreams could acquire.
You can code. They cannot. That is pretty damn cool."