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On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

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Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#21

Post by quietbritishjim »

ArtWomb wrote: post #18
hilbert42 wrote: post #3

If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is…

Specifically Trinity College, Cambridge. From Newton to Byron. And down to the Cambridge Spies and Bloomsbury Group. Although they still do the Math Tripos, the Greats program in Ancient Greek and Latin seems to have befallen modern times and is sadly diminished. One wonders what we are losing ;)

I think that what you call the "Greats" programme would today be called the "Classics", which still seems to be a Tripos option [1]. It requires knowledge of Latin but an extra preliminary year is available to teach it to those without the background. It also includes "intensive ancient Greek programme".

[1] https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/classics

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#22

Post by wombatmobile »

hilbert42 wrote: post #3

If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is…

> I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de force when I was studying those subjects

You get to do something they could only dream of back then - fast forward the wheels of history 100 years past two world wars to the age of science fiction where machines can think and speak, planet earth grows food for 8 billion people, and the moon is littered with human footprints from a generation ago.

Those philosophers would love nothing more than to spend an hour with you listening to your descriptions and thoughts about the world you live in.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#23

Post by IndySun »

simiones wrote: post #20
IndySun wrote: post #15

I found this article another gem from the numerous gems concerning Russell. I feel I must point out, as a fully paid up 'fan' of Russell's, and because people here have mentioned 'principles', he misstepped on race, perhaps (kindly) an indication of the sheer engrained blanket racism still prevalent in the world throughout the 20th century. For those evermore curious... https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview…

Can you point out a specific example of racism in that interview? I haven't looked through it entirely, but searching for some common terms that I expect someone to use when showing some racism ("race", "racism", "black", "intelligence", "asian", "brown") I couldn't find anything (he does mention Black men once, but only in a hypothetical reaction he expects the general public to have, one that he criticizes). The in…

No contentious race or eugenic topics are brought up in that interview. It was just for the curious...

I have looked, and I have yet to find serious recorded mentions of Russell on these topics, only transcripts, letters, etc..

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#24

Post by [deleted] »

wombatmobile wrote: post #22
hilbert42 wrote: post #3

If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is…

> I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de force when I was studying those subjects You get to do something they could only dream of back then - fast forward the wheels of history 100 years past two world wars to the age of science fiction where machines can think and speak, planet earth grows food for 8 billion people, and the moon is littered with human footprints from a generation ago. Those ph…

[deleted]

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#25

Post by mellosouls »

IndySun wrote: post #23
simiones wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point out a specific example of racism in that interview? I haven't looked through it entirely, but searching for some common terms that I expect someone to use when showing some racism ("race", "racism", "black", "intelligence", "asian", "brown") I couldn't find anything (he does mention Black men once, but only in a hypothetical reaction he expects the general public to have, one that he criticizes). The in…

No contentious race or eugenic topics are brought up in that interview. It was just for the curious... I have looked, and I have yet to find serious recorded mentions of Russell on these topics, only transcripts, letters, etc..

You misspoke then?

It would be useful to clarify as you've essentially just accused him of racism and its not clear that you acknowledge that accusation was incorrect or at least unevidenced here.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#26

Post by ycombinete »

Guthur wrote: post #10
ggm wrote: post #2

Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…

Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between their work and future suffering. It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer too the p…

I think you need to define what you consider a “moral stance” to be, before one can answer whether or not it was one.

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#28

Post by bmitc »

ggm wrote: post #2

Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his work to directly relate to military applications. There are very few people of his standing in science at that time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral implicati…

Do you have a source for this? I have been reading a fair amount on information theory, cybernetics, and Wiener lately, and I haven’t seen this mentioned, at least not yet.

In fact, the sources I’ve read said he was quite enthusiastic about helping out for both WWI and WWII.

For example:

https://www.cantorsparadise.com/the-absent-minded-father-of-...

Re: On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell

#30

Post by IndySun »

mellosouls wrote: post #25
IndySun wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No contentious race or eugenic topics are brought up in that interview. It was just for the curious... I have looked, and I have yet to find serious recorded mentions of Russell on these topics, only transcripts, letters, etc..

You misspoke then? It would be useful to clarify as you've essentially just accused him of racism and its not clear that you acknowledge that accusation was incorrect or at least unevidenced here.

Not at all. Anyone with a passing interest would be aware. As I stated, as the gist of the early posts mentioned Russell being a man of principles, it is always worth reminding ourselves no one is perfect.

NB I now see the wording of my post could be read as 'here is a post concerning race'. But I should have separated the first line from the rest of the post; the 'gem' I was referring to was the original post.

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