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Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

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Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#251

That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts: https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-... .

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599307 because this seems to be the point at which this thread started to become a hellish flamewar.

I've pretty much seen it all here and even I was shocked.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected! I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on…

Your grumbling and desperate denial doesn't change that turbines burning hydrogen are old hat. This is not something that any reasonable person would think won't work. None of the issues discussed there are showstoppers. They are things that should be, and have been, tweaked.

You broke the site guidelines more than once in this thread. I'm not going to ban you like the other users who were so outrageously abusive, but this is still seriously not ok and we've had to warn you about it before.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#253
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we aren't using combined cycle gas turbines round-trip efficiency of hydrogen storage is seriously reduced. I'm not moving any goalpost. This is your comment when you claimed that gas turbines could be repurposed to burn hydrogen: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599162 > Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines. > It's past time to admit you were wrong. Follow y…

It's almost endearing how far someone can shove their head up their own asshole and still keep shoving...

You repeatedly, outrageously violated HN's rules in this thread. I've pretty much seen it all here and even I was shocked. However wrong someone else is or you feel they are, you absolutely cannot post like this on this site.

Although both of you were at fault, your comments were so aggressive and vicious that I've banned your account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#254
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there's not a single grid that's green, since they all produce CO₂. Even zero emissions grids like wind and solar still produce CO₂ during manufacturing. And remember just how far up your own asshole you are with this: You've reject 90% hydrogen gas turbines, future gas turbines of only nine years from now, or even steam power plants running on 100% hydrogen. At this point your rationale is so dishonestly unfair…

I didn't reject future hydrogen gas turbines. In fact, I'm the one who brought them up . That's the entire point I'm making: hydrogen gas turbines are still in development. If hydrogen gas turbines already exist, why are GE, Siemens, and others talking about how they plan to develop hydrogen gas turbines by 2030 or 2040? They're not off the shelf technology, because they aren't even on the shelf yet. Im going to bed…

You broke the site guidelines repeatedly in this hellish flamewar. I realize the other user went beyond the pale in attacking you, but you were also badly at fault. Please stay out of flamewars in the future.

I was going to ban your account as well, but on a closer look it seems that the other commenter was being far more vicious, so I'm not going to do that right now. But perpetuating a flamewar like this is still absolutely against the rules—especially the interminably tedious tit-for-tat sort, which this one was. No more of this, please.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#255
post #247
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's crazy" isn't a rebuttal; it's just a statement of surprise. But I already know that what I said was surprising. As I said, in 01800 it was "crazy" to contemplate people safely traveling at 30 miles per hour (13 m/s in non-medieval units) or crossing the Atlantic under steam, and in 01830 it was being done, if not yet commonplace. In 01954 it was "crazy" to use a computer for "clerical work" like compilation;…

> I think a 100× increase in world marketed energy consumption due to PV is eminently plausible. It's not plausible, and despite your verbosity you offered no hypothesis as to why energy needs might increase 100x in just 30 years. It's not impossible, but there is no reason to expect that to happen - and you offer none, which I think is the minimum required to support your argument. That demand will increase 100x sim…

> you offered no hypothesis as to why energy needs might increase 100x in just 30 years

Right, because I was un-asking the question. There's no such thing as "energy needs", just energy conversion and dissipation, so your question is nonsensical. Up a couple of levels I linked to Marco Schulte, who's using an Arduino Nano, with maybe half a million transistors in it, to detect when his espresso machine turns on and count up the seconds of espresso brewing on Nixie tubes.

Have "transistor needs" thereby increased by half a million transistors? No, clearly this could have been done with 50 transistors or less. Or not done at all; plenty of espresso machines get by without timers protruding from the top, and plenty of people get by without coffee. There was no need, just consumption. But at this point we have something like 15 or 20 sextillion transistors in the world, so speaking of "transistor needs" is nonsense. Transistors are not rationed like covid vaccines in a backward country, where you only get to use as many as you can prove you need. They're still not free, though—though you can use half a million transistors as easily and cheaply as you can use one, a chip with sixteen billion transistors costs a little more than a chip with half a million, and a machine with a hundred billion transistors (16 GiB of RAM or Flash, for example) costs more than that and also takes up space and uses a significant amount of power. And once you're up into the trillions of transistors the cost goes up linearly with transistor count.

So, in short, Marco Schulte is using half a million transistors to detect his espresso machine turning on because transistors are cheap enough that he doesn't get any advantage he cares about by using less.

This phenomenon is not limited to transistors. Demand for just about anything will increase if it gets cheap enough. Forgive me if I point out that this assumption, that demand curves are generally downward-sloping, is fundamental to economic theory; it's not something I need to offer an argument for in a particular case, because the exceptions are few and far between.

— ⁂ —

Of course, that doesn't tell us how much the demand will increase. The 100× ballpark comes from taking, not the 39% yearly exponential growth in installed photovoltaic capacity over the period 01993 to 02018 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PV_cume_semi_log_cha..., but the much slower 23% yearly exponential growth we've seen over the last few years; extrapolating it 30 years into the future; and then dividing by 5 to make the estimate "conservative." Of course it's only really conservative if we don't hit some limiting factor before that point, as we did, for example, with oil in the 01970s. That exponential growth will surely level off at some point, at which point such empirical extrapolations become nonsense.

So what's the limiting factor? I don't know.

— ⁂ —

What will people be using abundant solar photovoltaic energy for in 30 years? Probably mostly things that are too absurd for us to imagine now, like Marco Schulte's espresso machine, whose coffee timer has roughly the computational power of the 24 AN/FSQ-7 computers that made up NORAD's missile defense system in 01965. I can come up with lots of uses for lots of energy that aren't so absurd, though they aren't likely to be the real answer:

- Mining Bitcoin. There's no limit to how much energy you can spend on that, because it's purely competitive, like soccer. It takes all the hashing you can do just to stay in the same place with respect to the other miners.

- Making more solar cells. The raw materials (except silver) are abundant, and the processing is highly automated, but it takes a lot of energy. So having a lot of solar cells sitting around producing cheap electricity makes it cheaper to make more solar cells, which in turn makes the electricity they produce even cheaper.

- Smelting aluminum. Currently 20%–40% of the cost of smelting aluminum is just the cost of the energy, but it's only that low because aluminum smelting pots are designed to be efficient and not waste too much energy. You can always trade off some efficiency for other desirable attributes of the design, like cheapness. Probably this would reduce the cost of aluminum per unit of strength below the cost of steel.

- Smelting ferrosilicon, which is used as a feedstock for, for example, magnesium. More generally all kinds of mining and smelting processes use a lot of energy, and have even energy-hungrier alternative processes that we don't use because they're more expensive than the ones we do use.

- Desalination for irrigation. The Sorek reverse-osmosis plant produces drinking water at a total cost of US$0.58/kℓ at 70 atmospheres, which is 7.1 kJ/ℓ; energy is something like a third of the cost, and as with aluminum, you can presumably make other aspects of the plant cheaper if you can afford to waste more energy. Suppose this less efficient design uses 20 kJ/ℓ. Growing rice needs about 5 feet of water (acre-feet per acre) per crop, because a rice field is basically a swamp; with 2 feet of water per year, you can get pastureland or vineyards instead of a swamp. 5 feet of water (1.5 m) per year at 20 kJ/ℓ is just under 1 W/m². So turning the Sahara (9.2 million km²) into rice fields would cost 9.2 terawatts, which is about half of total world marketed energy consumption as of 02021. At current prices, the requisite solar panels (which would themselves occupy about ½% of the Sahara) would cost US$1.4 trillion.

- Direct air capture of CO₂ to reverse global warming, which requires minimally about a gigajoule (250 kWh) per tonne on entropic grounds, and maybe 10 GJ/tonne if we can't figure out how to approach the theoretical efficiency. We need to remove about 1.29 × 10¹⁶ kg to get back to pre-industrial levels (see Derctuo for the calculation) and if we do that over 25 years at this 10%-efficient 10 GJ/tonne level, it will take 160 TW, about 9 times current world marketed energy consumption.

— ⁂ —

Now, right now, most of these projects would be uneconomic, because energy is so expensive, so it's tempting to reject them out of hand as implausible. No doubt von Neumann would have done the same if you'd told him a prophecy of Hypercard, which shipped 30 years after his death in 01957. How much more so your ignorant USan man on the street, whose knowledge of computers in 01957 was limited to DO NOT FOLD, SPINDLE, OR MUTILATE, a UNIVAC trying to take over the world in The Invisible Boy, and breathless newspaper articles about "giant electronic brains"?

On the flip side, what would someone in the 01957 USA have thought if you told them that in 01987 all the US manufacturers of small planes would be bankrupt, leaded gasoline outlawed, and the interstate speed limits reduced to 55 mph?

The future is not only stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine.

— ⁂ —

So, I ask you, a third time: Can you think of any other limiting factors I don't know about? What other possible limits do you think we might encounter between here and Kardashev Type 1?

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#256
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shipping costs from China, who is the source of key materials?

You might think so, but no. It's the wrong order of magnitude. That could add maybe US$2000 per TEU, which is 21 tonnes of cargo such as solar panels. You can ship a TEU anywhere in the world for US$3000 or less. A 1m² solar panel might weigh 20 kg, so that's roughly 1000 solar pannels, or US$2 per solar panel. That solar panel is about 200 Wp, so this works out to US$0.01 of shipping cost per peak watt. Or less. The…

*panels

Re: Solar Is Cheapest Electricity in History, U.S. DOE Aims to Cut Costs 60% by 2030

#257
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't reject future hydrogen gas turbines. In fact, I'm the one who brought them up . That's the entire point I'm making: hydrogen gas turbines are still in development. If hydrogen gas turbines already exist, why are GE, Siemens, and others talking about how they plan to develop hydrogen gas turbines by 2030 or 2040? They're not off the shelf technology, because they aren't even on the shelf yet. Im going to bed…

You broke the site guidelines repeatedly in this hellish flamewar. I realize the other user went beyond the pale in attacking you, but you were also badly at fault. Please stay out of flamewars in the future. I was going to ban your account as well, but on a closer look it seems that the other commenter was being far more vicious, so I'm not going to do that right now. But perpetuating a flamewar like this is still a…

To be honest I think you should go ahead and delete that account (and this, my main). Upon further reflection I think my engagement with HN has become unhealthy.
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