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Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

english.aljazeera.net

51–60 of 112 posts

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#51

"In the US, physician Janette Sherman MD and epidemiologist Joseph Mangano published an essay shedding light on a 35 per cent spike in infant mortality in northwest cities that occurred after the Fukushima meltdown, and may well be the result of fallout from the stricken nuclear plant." "The eight cities included in the report are San Jose, Berkeley, San Francisco, Sacramento, Santa Cruz, Portland, Seattle, and Boise…

So there was a lot of infant mortality on a location where (a) a magnitude 9 earthquake occurred (b) a tsunami passed (c) all electricity (including that of hospitals) failed for a LONG period (ie. too much to cover with diesel generators) - and hours later - (d) radiation levels slightly increased, well within safety tolerances

OMG ! the nuclear plantz ! Their killin` da babies !

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#52

The quick onslaught of the "it couldn't possibly be a meltdown" message in the mainstream media and the "MIT professor says" emails/webpages, etc all smacked of a propaganda campaign to me. All the while the fuel rods were sitting in a puddle at the bottom of the reactor... and probably leaking through into the ground. Of course, it's more likely that it was a lot of people not willing to believe the scope of the cat…

>Now we're hearing how modern reactors couldn't possibly have a meltdown like any of three so far.

No responsible nuclear engineer would make a claim like that.

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#53
post #2

In the US, physician Janette Sherman MD and epidemiologist Joseph Mangano published an essay shedding light on a 35 per cent spike in infant mortality in northwest cities that occurred after the Fukushima meltdown, and may well be the result of fallout from the stricken nuclear plant. The eight cities included in the report are San Jose, Berkeley, San Francisco, Sacramento, Santa Cruz, Portland, Seattle, and Boise, a…

Indeed. Berkeley's nuclear engineering department has been running one of the better monitoring programs:

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/UCBAirSampling

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, I'm regularly impressed by how the US media almost never questions, mentions or takes note any of the money and power connections which influence US politics so heavily. I think the story is deeper than one company who gave $269,000 however.

The solution is to find higher quality news outlets. NPR and PBS come to mind.

While they, along with the New Yorker, Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone and a few other magazines are better than average, they still don't question things in the way I'd like. There's still plenty things that seem to be unspeakable in their journalism.

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#55

"'Fukushima is the biggest industrial catastrophe in the history of mankind,' Arnold Gundersen, a former nuclear industry senior vice president, told Al Jazeera" OK, after reading the first sentence, I was already suspicious of this article. Quick tab back to HN comments seems to confirm it. Thanks for saving my time, HN.

I have to wonder why he ranked it above Bhopal, Deepwater Horizon, or even Chernobyl. Chernobyl had burning graphite and a fully exposed core. There were also lots of people dying of radiation sickness.

Thankfully, none of the plant workers appear to have died from that, though they have more reason to fear overexposure than anyone.

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#57

There's a lot of nonsense in that article. First of all, they keep repeating the words Plutonium and Uranium (particularly "enriched Uranium") and try to suggest that these are the major threats from the accident. They're not. Uranium isotopes have a half-life of billions of years, so whatever radioactivity they emit is spread out over a very long time. Overall, uranium is toxic in the same way that lead is toxic, an…

Overall, uranium is toxic in the same way that lead is toxic, and the chemical toxicity is probably worse than the radiotoxicity.

You know darn well we're not talking about "overall uranium".

We're talking about very hot uranium and plutonium directly from the cores of active nuclear reactors and the entire spectrum of elements and isotopes that get produced when you take that core, rods, and support structure and melt it out through the bottom of a containment vessel onto a concrete foundation that wasn't designed as a core catcher. Mix in seawater, steam, hydrogen explosions and gord knows what else and you have a reaction that is insufficiently modeled.

What we do know is that a large area of land is not being occupied in Japan due to contamination. The Japanese have very expensive land, know a thing or two about radioactive contamination, and are not exactly known for exaggerating the impact of industrial accidents.

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#58

There's a lot of nonsense in that article. First of all, they keep repeating the words Plutonium and Uranium (particularly "enriched Uranium") and try to suggest that these are the major threats from the accident. They're not. Uranium isotopes have a half-life of billions of years, so whatever radioactivity they emit is spread out over a very long time. Overall, uranium is toxic in the same way that lead is toxic, an…

Radioiodine from the accident has almost completely decayed

Given that the accident isn't over – fission is continuing without the normal containment – isn't more radioiodine being created, and at risk of further wide release, every day?

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#59
post #45
post #7

"In the US, physician Janette Sherman MD and epidemiologist Joseph Mangano published an essay shedding light on a 35 per cent spike in infant mortality in northwest cities that occurred after the Fukushima meltdown, and may well be the result of fallout from the stricken nuclear plant." Somehow, I'm not surprised by this. Janette Sherman is an anti-nuclear activist: http://janettesherman.com/ Joseph Mangano is the di…

While the idea that Fukushima would be responsible for a 35% increase in infant mortality anywhere in the U.S. strains ones credulity, her being anti-nuclear is not proof of her being wrong. It's not like MIT nuclear scientists are "disinterested parties", either. Pretty much everyone who's knowledgeable about nuclear power has a stake either way. There are two competing effects at work here, and it's hard to say whi…

"While the idea that Fukushima would be responsible for a 35% increase in infant mortality anywhere in the U.S. strains ones credulity"

Credulity doesn't factor into it. I found their "article" to be insulting in its lack of statistical rigor. If you have not read it, then you should read it.

They compare two averages - each taken over a completely different length of time. They do not even make the smallest attempt to control for any external factors. Finally, they look at some dates and assume direct causation.

This doesn't even make it to my credulity. It stops short of it, landing somewhere between disgust and amusement.

"her being anti-nuclear is not proof of her being wrong"

No, but her shabby statistical methodology does nothing to help her cause.

Perhaps I should have put the link to their article first before I introduced their backgrounds.

"It's not like MIT nuclear scientists are \"disinterested parties\", either."

No, but they are in an entirely different realm when it comes to the rigorousness of their methodology.

It is all well and good to have an opinion one way or another, but I do not think that we should pretend that there is any equivalence between the MIT nuclear scientists and Dr Sherman.

If you want to see intelligent debate on the merits of nuclear power, may I make the following recommendation:

http://www.economist.com/debate/days/view/681

(Note: It is not entirely obvious, but you can navigate between the phases of the debate by click the dates on the "latest updates bar".)

"There are two competing effects at work here, and it's hard to say which is strongest: If you are biased one way or another, you probably will put more effort into finding facts that support your view. That doesn't mean that those facts are wrong"

Are we talking about facts or opinions? Facts, by definition, are true. With that definition in mind, facts can not be "wrong".

I should hope that if someone is making an argument they go through whatever efforts needed to find and report the facts that support their case.

"just that you have acquired a self-reinforced, biased view of the world."

If you see two sides in a debate and both sides have strong, compelling arguments then it is the responsibility of you, the individual, to make your own choice.

However, just because someone favors a certain perspective on an issue does not mean that their viewpoint should be discarded because they are "biased".

Bias is not as simple of a concept as you make it out to be. Any issue worthy of intelligent debate and discussion is likely to be extremely nuanced.

There will be an interaction between the nuances of a complex issue and the personal values that people place on certain things.

In other words, it is possible for more than one group of people to be "right" on a certain issue. However, I think that the key point to remember here is that building an argument based on facts is a prerequisite to correctness.

"But saying this argument is like pointing out \"motive\" in a trial seems like a stretch. Motive would usually include financial or other similar types of gain. If saying things you believe are right makes you liable to a charge of having motive to lying just because you have an opinion, then you can't trust anyone except completely ignorant people, which is not a step forward."

Actually, I completely agree with you here. I read the comment describing my initial argument as "motive", but you would figure that in order to have a motive someone had to have committed a crime.

Maybe this is a good explanation. I suppose that from my perspective their "article" was a "crime against statistics", and having elected myself judge, jury, and executioner all that I needed to do is come up with their motivation.

I probably should have made my perspective a little more clear in my original post, but I was trying to be succinct. Unfortunately, in my quest for succinctness, I created a post that may be construed as suboptimal.

Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

#60

There's a lot of nonsense in that article. First of all, they keep repeating the words Plutonium and Uranium (particularly "enriched Uranium") and try to suggest that these are the major threats from the accident. They're not. Uranium isotopes have a half-life of billions of years, so whatever radioactivity they emit is spread out over a very long time. Overall, uranium is toxic in the same way that lead is toxic, an…

Overall, uranium is toxic in the same way that lead is toxic, and the chemical toxicity is probably worse than the radiotoxicity. You know darn well we're not talking about "overall uranium". We're talking about very hot uranium and plutonium directly from the cores of active nuclear reactors and the entire spectrum of elements and isotopes that get produced when you take that core, rods, and support structure and me…

no you are not! the isotopes from uranium and plutonium fuel rod use and miss use only!
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