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What have you developed in your spare time?

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Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#31

Post by trustfundbaby »

mrcharles wrote: post #2

I take issue with this article because it would come across to me as a red flag about work-life balance. That an employer would expect you to be doing something programming related in your spare time comes across as a bit self-serving. Instead, I would ask "What would you like to develop in your spare time, if you had any?" That way they can answer the same as his question if they are working on stuff, but can still…

I take issue with this article because it would come across to me as a red flag about work-life balance. That an employer would expect you to be doing something programming related in your spare time comes across as a bit self-serving.

---------------

I think you're reading too much into it ... I've been doing this for 7 years (not that long) and without fail all the really good developers I've ever known or met have built something in their spare time ... just for kicks, a webserver, a firefox addon, some game, a ruby gem, PHP script, a macro for their favorite editor, some electronic gizmo ... something.

Not all developers do it, but the very best do ... so its not a disqualifying question, but it sure does allow you zero in on the very best developers rather easily.

As an aside ... you should always be looking at code, when you're hiring developers. If they can't give you any examples, then make them write something ... I'm continually shocked by how many companies make $70+k investments in people they've never seen in action.

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#32

Post by raganwald »

count wrote: post #24
raganwald wrote: post #17

It's easy to point out that this question will exclude some false negatives, good people that don't have side projects. I rarely hear anyone worried that it will produce false positives, crappy people that have a github profile bursting with interesting work. But here's the thing: If you think that this is a bad question to ask in an interview, I have a challenge for you: Describe a repeatable, objective process for…

Why should hiring anybody being fair and objective? Life isn't fair and objective, business isn't fair and objective. I want the best person I can get (for a very, very subjective definition of 'best') for the cheapest I can get and keep them (both employed and happy). That's not fair , that's life.

I don't recall saying anything about fair.

As for objective, what I said was for those people who refute the question objectively on the basis of false negatives, I challenge them to come up with an alternative that has zero false negatives.

This was simply an observation about the difficulty of being objective without excluding qualified applicants. In fact, I expclitly allowed for the possibility of saying that you choose your hires subjectively. Could we be in "violent agreement?"

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#33

Post by raganwald »

kenjackson wrote: post #22
raganwald wrote: post #17

It's easy to point out that this question will exclude some false negatives, good people that don't have side projects. I rarely hear anyone worried that it will produce false positives, crappy people that have a github profile bursting with interesting work. But here's the thing: If you think that this is a bad question to ask in an interview, I have a challenge for you: Describe a repeatable, objective process for…

I rarely hear anyone worried that it will produce false positives, crappy people that have a github profile bursting with interesting work. Actually I do worry about that, and have seen it -- and maybe not surprisingly could have predicted it. The symptoms are often a very active set of open source projects, often a maintainer, lack of enthusiasm about virtually anything they did in their day job. My theory is their…

I think about it as well, which is why I follow the strategy outlined in the last paragraph: Asking multiple questions and integrating the responses. Such a strategy embraces the candidates who embrace side projects because they have boundless enthusiasm within and outside of their job, candidates who have enthusiasm for their job but are busy BASE jumping in their spare time, and so forth.

I seriously doubt the author or anybody else espouses any single criterion as the only determinant in hiring. This happens to be the author's favorite question, just as my favorite happens to be about Monopoly.

p.s. FWIW, the question along these lines that I like to ask is for the candidate to describe projects that they are most proud of and have learnt the most from (two separate answers are certainly applicable, although sometimes it's the same one). Some candidates describe a work project, some a side project.

What I have discovered in my small, anecdotal experience is that people with side projects always have an answer to this question, while candidates without side projects sometimes have trouble explaining what they're most proud of and why. But the fact that some people without side projects have trouble articulating their pride does not suggest to me that a person who is justifiably proud of a work accomplishment is neccessarily a NO HIRE. I suspect we agree on this.

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#34

Post by leon_ »

Oh gosh, I have a problem with too many spare time projects. My GitHub account has over 60 public repos full with spare time projects. And I have to force myself to get away from the computer for at least a few hours.

I guess this extreme isn't too good either but there's always something to be done :)

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#35

Post by mrcharles »

andywood wrote: post #29
mrcharles wrote: post #2

I take issue with this article because it would come across to me as a red flag about work-life balance. That an employer would expect you to be doing something programming related in your spare time comes across as a bit self-serving. Instead, I would ask "What would you like to develop in your spare time, if you had any?" That way they can answer the same as his question if they are working on stuff, but can still…

I don't think side projects are mutually exclusive with work-life balance. Granted, I don't have children; but aside from that, I think I've been living a very full and action-packed life. Time-consuming outdoor hobbies, girlfriends, friends, going out, travelling - check. I also waste sickening amounts of time on sites like this one, and playing video games. Yet I've found plenty of time over the years to work on tw…

I do agree with you, but my reaction is that what I do on my own time is my business and has absolutely no bearing on anything else, and that asking about it is borderline invasion of privacy.

Maybe I work on stuff I don't want to talk about all night long, or maybe I don't work on anything at all when I get home because what I'm doing at work fulfills me. Either way, it should have no bearing on an interview.

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#36

Post by irahul »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #31
mrcharles wrote: post #2

I take issue with this article because it would come across to me as a red flag about work-life balance. That an employer would expect you to be doing something programming related in your spare time comes across as a bit self-serving. Instead, I would ask "What would you like to develop in your spare time, if you had any?" That way they can answer the same as his question if they are working on stuff, but can still…

I take issue with this article because it would come across to me as a red flag about work-life balance. That an employer would expect you to be doing something programming related in your spare time comes across as a bit self-serving. --------------- I think you're reading too much into it ... I've been doing this for 7 years (not that long) and without fail all the really good developers I've ever known or met have…

I know some very good developers who didn't do anything in their spare time. One of them was co-inventor of gif format, another was a core contributor to cygwin gdb and so on. But that was all before their day job. When they started their day jobs, that's all they did.

Would you discard them as "not so good" because they don't do anything in their spare time and they concentrate on task on hand? Some people have more demanding jobs and/or prefer to work on their day job in their spare time - not because someone is putting a gun on their head, but because they like doing what they do.

Why would they bother with side projects when they already have real life projects? Impressing the interviewer isn't on their agenda and all other aspects viz. gratification, joy of creation are the same.

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#37

Post by dsmith_hacker »

I think there is a difference between hiring students and hiring professionals. From my experience (currently in school), my peers that have side projects (including myself) enjoy programming for the challenges and would be, IMHO, better employees. The students that don't have side projects tend to be in school to JUST GET A JOB. They don't experiment with code and generally don't have a passion for it.

In the end, I think the author is correct when it comes to students (however, the author doesn't address the difference between students and pros)... Maybe not such a good idea for the in-the-field professional.

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#38

Post by trustfundbaby »

irahul wrote: post #36
trustfundbaby wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with this article because it would come across to me as a red flag about work-life balance. That an employer would expect you to be doing something programming related in your spare time comes across as a bit self-serving. --------------- I think you're reading too much into it ... I've been doing this for 7 years (not that long) and without fail all the really good developers I've ever known or met have…

I know some very good developers who didn't do anything in their spare time. One of them was co-inventor of gif format, another was a core contributor to cygwin gdb and so on. But that was all before their day job. When they started their day jobs, that's all they did. Would you discard them as "not so good" because they don't do anything in their spare time and they concentrate on task on hand? Some people have more…

One of them was co-inventor of gif format, another was a cygwin to contributor to cygwin gdb and so on. But that was all before their day job.

Would you discard them as "not so good" because they don't do anything in their spare time?

-----------------------------------

No, because their prior accomplishments speak for themselves.

You need to stop looking at it as some yardstick to get over and understand that it is simply an informal measure of a developer's passion and drive, just because you don't do it doesn't mean "you suck. NO HIRE!"

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#39

Post by trustfundbaby »

mrcharles wrote: post #35
andywood wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think side projects are mutually exclusive with work-life balance. Granted, I don't have children; but aside from that, I think I've been living a very full and action-packed life. Time-consuming outdoor hobbies, girlfriends, friends, going out, travelling - check. I also waste sickening amounts of time on sites like this one, and playing video games. Yet I've found plenty of time over the years to work on tw…

I do agree with you, but my reaction is that what I do on my own time is my business and has absolutely no bearing on anything else, and that asking about it is borderline invasion of privacy. Maybe I work on stuff I don't want to talk about all night long, or maybe I don't work on anything at all when I get home because what I'm doing at work fulfills me. Either way, it should have no bearing on an interview.

my reaction is that what I do on my own time is my business and has absolutely no bearing on anything else, and that asking about it is borderline invasion of privacy

-------------------------

I'm not seeing the invasion of privacy ... its a relevant question that is strictly limited to your development/engineering experience ... what you learn on side projects has bearing on your knowledge as a developer, if you don't want to reveal that, great, but most people that do have side projects have no reservations talking about it when prompted (unless its top secret or illegal)>

I'm sure a good interviewer can find a way establish your proficiency based on your work experience etc

Maybe I work on stuff I don't want to talk about all night long, or maybe I don't work on anything at all when I get home because what I'm doing at work fulfills me

----------------------------------------

Great. Doesn't change the fact that its enough of a trend among good developers to be used in an interview, to help you zero in on the really good guys.

Re: What have you developed in your spare time?

#40

Post by irahul »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #38
irahul wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know some very good developers who didn't do anything in their spare time. One of them was co-inventor of gif format, another was a core contributor to cygwin gdb and so on. But that was all before their day job. When they started their day jobs, that's all they did. Would you discard them as "not so good" because they don't do anything in their spare time and they concentrate on task on hand? Some people have more…

One of them was co-inventor of gif format, another was a cygwin to contributor to cygwin gdb and so on. But that was all before their day job. Would you discard them as "not so good" because they don't do anything in their spare time? ----------------------------------- No, because their prior accomplishments speak for themselves. You need to stop looking at it as some yardstick to get over and understand that it is…

> No, because their prior accomplishments speak for themselves.

I just quoted examples where their prior accomplishments was public. There were many whose prior accomplishments are not public and were for their employers.

> simply an informal measure of a developer's passion and drive.

I don't have a problem with using side projects as informal projects as informal measure of passion. I have a problem with your assertion that all good developers have side projects. I have worked with quite a few and most of them didn't.

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